Nationalized Healthcare? Not In My Back Yard!

[Bamspeedy]

I would provide that if that was my claim.

But my claims were:
a. the US health system is the most expensive in the world. I believe I showed a lot of material proving that.
b. the US Health system, albeit a good one, is not the best in the world. To support that, I used the average life expectancy, along with the number of doctors, nurses and CT scanners available, to show that Americans live shorter and have access to fewer health resources.

You have showed nothing.

a. You assume that people in the two different systems are receiving the same amount of treatment. Elective (not life threatening) procedures are certainly done more often in the U.S. because they aren't waiting months or years to have the surgeries done, adding to the 'health care costs', and Americans already are the most heavily medicated people on the planet, which would increase even more if they would get it 'for free' (having the other tax payers pick up the tab).

b. The study that placed the U.S. at #37, did give the US the best possible ranking in 'appropriate care'. The skill level of the doctors in the US are the best because the best doctors all over the world come here to make all that money. The skill level of the doctors however, can not overcome all of the negatives from poor life choices by the patient. Did you ever think that if it wasn't for the quality of our doctors, our life expectancy and other stats could be way worse! Skill level of doctors is not the only factor that affects life expectancy, and life expectancy is not the only factor in determining the skill level of doctors or quality of health system. The study I'm referring to ranked the countries in 5 different areas. At least one of those areas was 'how it is paid for', so obviously that hinders the US ranking by 20% automatically, regardless of our health.

 

[JohnRM]

Your questions have been answered. You have, as many posers have noted, failed to answer masque's cross.

In your own time old boy. We'll just amuse ourselves untill you do...

I didn't have a question. I made a statement that a significant portion of the American public does not take care of itself and those of us who do are going to end up paying for that when it comes time for these people to face the result of their lifestyles. To my knowledge, nobody has addressed why I should accept that and pay for it.

By the way, I ended my conversation with Masque, a while back. I have responded to everyone else.

 

[JohnRM]

Now, the event that you've been all waiting for...apparently.

BTW, this does not negate the ending of my discussion with Masque. I have no desire to discuss this issue with you.

that:
a. nationalized healthcare costs more (when all the data available points that the current privatized health care in the US is the most expensive in the world)

To be perfectly honest, I cannot prove that it does, but one cannot prove that it doesn't. Americans spend more on healthcare, but if I remember correctly, we also receive more total healthcare. I am not going to search for a source for any of you.

However, one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that healthcare will certainly cost more for someone like me who eats right and exercises, doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, and doesn't smoke in a nationalized health system than it would otherwise. The taxes in this country will skyrocket due to such a system and unless they can somehow manage to take less than 50 bucks a year from me, then I am going to pay more.

FACT.

b. the American health care is the best in the world (when all available data shows that it's not)

I have never typed those words.

 

[downtown]

To be perfectly honest, I cannot prove that it does, but one cannot prove that it doesn't. Americans spend more on healthcare, but if I remember correctly, we also receive more total healthcare. I am not going to search for a source for any of you.

However, one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that healthcare will certainly cost more for someone like me who eats right and exercises, doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, and doesn't smoke in a nationalized health system than it would otherwise. The taxes in this country will skyrocket due to such a system and unless they can somehow manage to take less than 50 bucks a year from me, then I am going to pay more.

FACT.
.

Nope! That doesn't have to be true!

Right now, we pay an TON of money for the Medicare and Medicaid programs. These make sure that the poorest (or oldest) Americans get health care. These programs, along with the myraid of different insurance providers, make for a complicated system. We spend an obscene amount of money on these heath entitlement programs. I think (and I believe in many government programs) that the cost/value for Medicare/Medicade is low enough, that we ought to look at blowing them up.

If we are to create some kind of national health care service, be that with national insurance, or something else, I think we would get rid of, or at least seriously pare back, those two monster programs (only SS is bigger). The streamlining of everything (eliminating massive insurance related beucracy) would save us money.

Like Shane. said, this is an area where we can experiment and innovate. What works for Europe may not work for us. What I think we can all agree on, is that we have a big problem with the number of folks without insurance, and that for the service a lot of us get, we pay (in taxes, and in real dollars), too damn much.

 

[JohnRM]

Nope! That doesn't have to be true!

Right now, we pay an TON of money for the Medicare and Medicaid programs. These make sure that the poorest (or oldest) Americans get health care. These programs, along with the myraid of different insurance providers, make for a complicated system. We spend an obscene amount of money on these heath entitlement programs. I think (and I believe in many government programs) that the cost/value for Medicare/Medicade is low enough, that we ought to look at blowing them up.

If we are to create some kind of national health care service, be that with national insurance, or something else, I think we would get rid of, or at least seriously pare back, those two monster programs (only SS is bigger). The streamlining of everything (eliminating massive insurance related beucracy) would save us money.

Like Shane. said, this is an area where we can experiment and innovate. What works for Europe may not work for us. What I think we can all agree on, is that we have a big problem with the number of folks without insurance, and that for the service a lot of us get, we pay (in taxes, and in real dollars), too damn much.

I very seriously doubt that they could turn our current system into a nationalized health system and not raise my taxes.

 

[downtown]

I do not think we could turn our medical system into say, France's, and not raise taxes...but expanded health coverage comes in many different flavors.

 

[CCA]

Cuban Healthcare system > American Healthcare system

That is all

 

[JohnRM]

That is all

Thank God!

 

[Grisu]

Something that doesn't get discussed nearly enough in some of the European systems, in particular, is the future cost of health care considering the negative population trends (more older people = 4x the health needs versus a shrinking working population)

yep, sad but true, and it's not only health care that is affected. This probably is the biggest challenge/problems for Europe (and to a lesser degree the US) in the next decades, IMHO.

I didn't have a question. I made a statement that a significant portion of the American public does not take care of itself and those of us who do are going to end up paying for that when it comes time for these people to face the result of their lifestyles. To my knowledge, nobody has addressed why I should accept that and pay for it.

You also claimed that this would get even worse on a nationalized health care. Something the existing national health care countries don't seem to experience.
the smoking, for example has already been adressed. Most health care costs of smoking are paid directly via taxes on cigarettes. fruthermore, smokers die earlier so, while drawing more health cost, they draw less pensions
What's more, even in private health care you're still paying for other peoples' bad choices. Just not all other people, but people that fit your profile. Or do you think a representative of your insurance follows you every step to determine how healthy you live?

However, one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that healthcare will certainly cost more for someone like me who eats right and exercises, doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, and doesn't smoke in a nationalized health system than it would otherwise. The taxes in this country will skyrocket due to such a system and unless they can somehow manage to take less than 50 bucks a year from me, then I am going to pay more.

that may well be, but FWIW, the choices aren't simply fully nationalized health care vs. private health care. there are plenty of steps in between. we have a nationalized system of sorts here too, and I can influence how much I'm gonna pay.

FACT.

nope, not FACT, it's a PREDICTION

I have never typed those words.

of course you didn't, but you posted several things that meant exactly that, even in this post you said that "but if I remember correctly, we also receive more total healthcare". and you seem to cling to that claim without any proof

 

[Mark1031]

The US system is an absurd bloated waste maintained by bribes to politicians and the right wing rhetoric that demonizes any sort of collective action for the common good of the country--other than war of course. When the US eventually adopts some form of health care guarantee for all (as it surely will in the next 10 yrs) I suggest that all you healthy individualists move out lest you pay one penny more than your share. You act like my 10 year old kids fighting over a piece of cake. Enjoy your new country with no taxes and no services where nobody shares their toys.

 

[Verbose]

However, one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that healthcare will certainly cost more for someone like me who eats right and exercises, doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, and doesn't smoke in a nationalized health system than it would otherwise. The taxes in this country will skyrocket due to such a system and unless they can somehow manage to take less than 50 bucks a year from me, then I am going to pay more.

It's only true as long as you stay perfectly healthy. Once you get a serious illness it's all gravy for you from then on.

The fact that you eat well, don't smoke and exercise only means the probability you will get a serious illness decreases, it in no way removes it. Lots of people doing everything the way they're supposed to end up with life-threatening illnesses every day. Non-smokers get lung cancer too, only statistically a lot less often. What's your family history with regards to cancer? Mental illness? Auto-immune disease? Those are real kickers, and eating right might reduce the probability of contracting them some, or simplt postpone them until later in life,but will never remove them in any individual case.

Besides, if you live right and to a ripe old age, you will massively increase the probability of getting cancer, in which case you will need treatment. Live long enough and your body will develop cancer, that's about as close to a statistical certainity applicable on an individual level we can get here. So, if after a long and so far healthy life you end up with terminal cancer you will be glad for effective pain-killers.

You seem to be trying to apply reasoning for the probability of disease within a population on an individual level? It doesn't quite work like that.

 

[El_Machinae]

However, one thing is absolutely certain, and that is that healthcare will certainly cost more for someone like me who eats right and exercises, doesn't abuse drugs or alcohol, and doesn't smoke in a nationalized health system than it would otherwise. The taxes in this country will skyrocket due to such a system and unless they can somehow manage to take less than 50 bucks a year from me, then I am going to pay more

That would change if you paid your fair share of taxes.
Have you shown that the average American has a significantly more unhealthy lifestyle than the average UKer or Canadian?

Because, like I've shown, the Americans pay more taxes into their healthcare system than either a Canadian or UKer. If we all magically paid our 'fair share' of taxes, I'd be paying ~$700 less taxes per year than you, in health care taxes.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

What is with the Masque-hating?

"I have no desire to talk to that... FFFRENCHMAN "

 

[Pokurcz]

John should watch Moore's "Sicko", and explain how the plights of the numerous people described in the film work with his view of US health care. Especially those rescue workers from Ground Zero.

 

[bhsup]

I might be too late to contribute, but I can contribute quickly.

If we compare Canada, UK, and the USA we can compare two systems that are nationalised and one that is not.

Some quick things to note (all of what I say below is per capita). You already know that Canada and UK gov't pick up a larger % of the bill.

Canada/UK spend less of their GDP, than the US, on health care (totalled gov't + out of pocket).
Canada/UK gov't pays less than the US gov't
Canada/UK citizens pay less out of pocket than US citizen
Canada/UK gov't puts less of its total revenues (%) to health care than US.
Canada/UK has higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality.
http://www.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?countries=all&indicators=nha
Edit: There, fixed the link

You'll really want to check out the link


In fact, the total per capita spent in Canada is only slightly more than what the US gov't pays per capita.

However, the best-spent health-care dollars are R&D and preventative. Our enormous savings are due to preventative savings as well as much higher efficiencies in bureaucracy. Our doctors don't have to hire insurance specialists in order to nagivate the systems of getting permission to treat a patient.

Thanks for the informative post!!

Still, though, I'd not support a universal healthcare system at the Federal level, only at State. Unfortunately, that'll require a huge shift in the tax burden, and the feds won't ever willingly relinquish the monies they currently take in just to dole right back out to the States. It's a power trip thing I guess.

I know it's just anecdotal, but one thing that burns me are all the commercials for motorized chairs and so forth with the assurance that "you may well qualify for this free." You know they are charging Medicare obscene fees for that stuff.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

@VRWCAgent. What about a situation where the federal government mandates that all states must create a state health care system based on certain criteria and guidelines, but where the state manages the actual operations/bureaucracy and funding?

 

[bhsup]

Constitutionally? They have no more authority to do that than they do to do a lot of the powers they've usurped, so I'd not support it. And anyway, I still think it should be a State decision whether to even engage in a Statewide universal health care system at all. Some may want it, some may not.

 

[Masquerouge]

What makes me laugh is that people try and prove America has a bad health care system. It may not be the best but its still one of the best, just different to what we're used to.

Just another Europe vs America thread move along.

I'll definitely agree that it is a good system. It's just insanely expensive.

a. You assume that people in the two different systems are receiving the same amount of treatment. Elective (not life threatening) procedures are certainly done more often in the U.S. because they aren't waiting months or years to have the surgeries done, adding to the 'health care costs', and Americans already are the most heavily medicated people on the planet, which would increase even more if they would get it 'for free' (having the other tax payers pick up the tab).

Mmmh. So what you're saying is that the current American system is more wasteful of its resources?

b. The study that placed the U.S. at #37, did give the US the best possible ranking in 'appropriate care'. The skill level of the doctors in the US are the best because the best doctors all over the world come here to make all that money. The skill level of the doctors however, can not overcome all of the negatives from poor life choices by the patient. Did you ever think that if it wasn't for the quality of our doctors, our life expectancy and other stats could be way worse! Skill level of doctors is not the only factor that affects life expectancy, and life expectancy is not the only factor in determining the skill level of doctors or quality of health system. The study I'm referring to ranked the countries in 5 different areas. At least one of those areas was 'how it is paid for', so obviously that hinders the US ranking by 20% automatically, regardless of our health.

Yes, it might very well be that the US has the best doctors in the world. But we're talking about the healthcare system here. And are these best doctors available to all US citizens regardless of their income through the private healthcare system?

 

[ibn sina]

As El_Machinae pointed out, while the american health-care system isn't nationalised it is still far from free. There is very significant government spending.
So if we want to compare nationalised vs private health care we should look for a country that actually has private health care, any suggestions?

 

[Laurencius]

Libertarians celebrate selfishness. They would happily buy a fast food franchise, pump commercials that target children into being life-long customers, and then laugh and mock their fat customers when they get sick and cannot afford health care.

Any sociologist will point out that the obesity epidemic in the US is not simply a result of individual behavior, but that there are larger social factors to be considered.

I don't think people choose to be fat, and certainly they do not choose to be poor.

The measure of a society is found in how they treat their weakest and most helpless citizens.

I waft my rolls of fat and multiple chins in the direction of the OP.