NES/IOT Merger Poll

[Defacto]

Ahoy,

Not to say that my collaboration was zero, I will leave my point of view here. The NES community was one of the first I met aside from the Civ 3 PBEM. I was amazed by both communities, but I never had the courage to make any comment at all, to this day, I still have a struggle with my English. I do not believe how they accepted me (if it happened). Luckymoose was nice to me, just as Thlayli was with his daily complaints and corrections of my English.

I was never active in the NES community, I attribute this to the troubled period that I joined the troupe. But TBNES - 2: Forging The Dawn, although short, was one of the enjoyable experiences I've had. And I believe In Titan's Shadow would also be one. I tried to go back to the NES community, but I ended up running out of time and internet pro because of travels. I believe that if someone was to label me would say I was a young talent on development.

Anyway, summarizing, I believe that some of both communities are with nerves on edge. AND YES, I'M SAYING BOTH. I believe that both communities have merge potential but have experience with long-time forums I believe that will be complicated in the organization since it seems that both NES and IOT - by what people are arguing - are two totally different things.

The solution is peace for all time.

 

[Thlayli]

Good post, Defacto. You're always welcome in my NES.

It's "Not to say that my collaboration was zero, I will leave my point of view here," by the way.

 

[spryllino]

I still don't see why IOTers are so desperate to drag the NES community kicking and screaming into a merger. I mean, what on earth is the point of merging with a subforum much of which does not wish to merge?

The most obvious parallel is the international politics that both of our communities often seek to mimic. Do countries in IOTs hold referendums on unions on the basis that an overall majority of people from the combined populations of both is sufficient mandate? I don't suppose even IOTs lack that much plausibility.

It surely stands to reason that NES and IOT should never merge unless there is an overwhelming supermajority in both camps, and I don't remotely see why - even if they personally think a merger is a good idea - IOTers would not accept this principle.

 

[Double A]

Well 23 of the 47 voters in favor of a merge are IOTers, so it's not just us. However, only 5 in 25 of the anti-mergers are IOTers. I'm not sure how many people who probably shouldn't be voting are included in these figures, but I also don't really care enough to give this the analysis a surprising number of you think it deserves.

 

[W|M]

I still don't see why IOTers are so desperate to drag the NES community kicking and screaming into a merger.

Link to video.

 

[SamSniped]

Okay.

This has gotten out of hand.

I found this whole merger ridiculous from the start. This poll came literally from out of nowhere, and started a debate regarding multiple sensitive topics to both communities. Both communities have acted aggressively towards each other, including flaming both from and towards the moderation staff. I have played in both communities for a while, IOT since 2011 and NES for a couple years now (though less active leading up to the exodus). A merger seemed good in my eyes. I thought we could ease the past tensions, begin a civil discussion, and actually make progress. Instead, this flame war extends over 3 subforums and two chats, with both sides infuriated at each other with seemingly no end.

And I am tired of all of it.

Both sides need to stop. BOTH SIDES need to admit their wrongdoings. No, I don't want to hear any "he started it first!" bs. I want both sides to realize that at this point, they are in the wrong. Both sides are showing signs of elitism, both sides are being aggressive towards each other, and even though people at this point (namely KaiserElectric and Thlayli, to point out two on both sides) are just arguing to stand up for their friends and comrades, they are making the current divide between NES and IOT worse. Do I condemn them? Not at all, and knowing Lec (who is a good friend of mine) plus also talking to Thlayli (who I talked to recently), they should be praised for the fact that they would stand up for their friends in a case like this. But I do NOT want a huge rift in relations between the forums. Even if there is never a merger, I don't want people on both sides constantly pissed at each other over this topic. Whether we like it or not, we are a community that, until recently, was dedicated to this forum. If we don't try to work together, then no one will improve. A NES will never have the stats possible in one of Sone's masterfully crafted rulesets, while an IOT will never achieve the quality of EoE. Even if neither side wants that, the point still stands. I firmly believe in the motto nil satis nisi optimum - nothing but the best is good enough. And if this argument never stops while both sides hate each other plus the mod staff, the best will be so far out of reach that we'll be stuck without progress. I want to see damn good games on both sides regardless of whether they're more numerically complex than a college textbook or the best story I've ever read. I want peace. And you all should be ashamed of yourselves for how far this has gone.

This is why I officially change my vote to "NO" regarding the topic of a merger. I won't stand for what this community is doing at the moment, and a merger will clearly NOT solve the issue.

------

Also, I would like to formally apologize for my trolling earlier in the thread and in general regarding this debate. Again, I never took it seriously from the start. However, trying to get a few laughs was not the right decision. And I hope many of you come to this simple conclusion as well

 

[Defacto]

Well 23 of the 47 voters in favor of a merge are IOTers, so it's not just us. However, only 5 in 25 of the anti-mergers are IOTers. I'm not sure how many people who probably shouldn't be voting are included in these figures, but I also don't really care enough to give this the analysis a surprising number of you think it deserves.

To begin with I do not even know who started the idea.

 

[Double A]

Pretty sure that's irrelevant at this point.

 

[spryllino]

Yes, but, regardless of who started it, does any IOTer actually have any sensible reason for going along with this merger that they think is important enough to override the wishes of a large part of the community they are trying to merge with?

If not, can we have some more IOTers turning their backs on this idiocy, please?

 

[Tyo]

Okay.

This has gotten out of hand.

I found this whole merger ridiculous from the start. This poll came literally from out of nowhere, and started a debate regarding multiple sensitive topics to both communities. Both communities have acted aggressively towards each other, including flaming both from and towards the moderation staff. I have played in both communities for a while, IOT since 2011 and NES for a couple years now (though less active leading up to the exodus). A merger seemed good in my eyes. I thought we could ease the past tensions, begin a civil discussion, and actually make progress. Instead, this flame war extends over 3 subforums and two chats, with both sides infuriated at each other with seemingly no end.

And I am tired of all of it.

Both sides need to stop. BOTH SIDES need to admit their wrongdoings. No, I don't want to hear any "he started it first!" bs. I want both sides to realize that at this point, they are in the wrong. Both sides are showing signs of elitism, both sides are being aggressive towards each other, and even though people at this point (namely KaiserElectric and Thlayli, to point out two on both sides) are just arguing to stand up for their friends and comrades, they are making the current divide between NES and IOT worse. Do I condemn them? Not at all, and knowing Lec (who is a good friend of mine) plus also talking to Thlayli (who I talked to recently), they should be praised for the fact that they would stand up for their friends in a case like this. But I do NOT want a huge rift in relations between the forums. Even if there is never a merger, I don't want people on both sides constantly pissed at each other over this topic. Whether we like it or not, we are a community that, until recently, was dedicated to this forum. If we don't try to work together, then no one will improve. A NES will never have the stats possible in one of Sone's masterfully crafted rulesets, while an IOT will never achieve the quality of EoE. Even if neither side wants that, the point still stands. I firmly believe in the motto nil satis nisi optimum - nothing but the best is good enough. And if this argument never stops while both sides hate each other plus the mod staff, the best will be so far out of reach that we'll be stuck without progress. I want to see damn good games on both sides regardless of whether they're more numerically complex than a college textbook or the best story I've ever read. I want peace. And you all should be ashamed of yourselves for how far this has gone.

This is why I officially change my vote to "NO" regarding the topic of a merger. I won't stand for what this community is doing at the moment, and a merger will clearly NOT solve the issue.

------

Also, I would like to formally apologize for my trolling earlier in the thread and in general regarding this debate. Again, I never took it seriously from the start. However, trying to get a few laughs was not the right decision. And I hope many of you come to this simple conclusion as well

I feel like you're over-reacting. Most of the drama is self-inflicted. The other day, a bunch of IOTers visited #nes and we had a fine time. The only reason there are any sour feelings or flaming is because a loud few are taking this discussion too personally and are generally not being mature about this at all.

Yes, but, regardless of who started it, does any IOTer actually have any sensible reason for going along with this merger that they think is important enough to override the wishes of a large part of the community they are trying to merge with?

If not, can we have some more IOTers turning their backs on this idiocy, please?

Increased blending of ideas, potential for overall better community, possible end to what strife may remain, increased activity overall. A buncha stuff, really.

And if the many, many posts of users in the "no" camp is any indicator, they "Are not opposed to the merge, just how it's being done." If they really are as fine with the merge as they say they are, given compromises and such, I think the no camp would be at least cut in half.

 

[mechaerik]

Right, I've remained silent on this whole issue so far (I haven't even voted in the poll), but the situation has clearly degenerated and I feel the need to chip in.

I've always been pro-merge, though every time the issue has been brought up it has been handled in the worst possible way. Last time in particular it was quite poorly executed. I've also always felt that having two separate communities was perfectly workable, and that a merger should be done when it is right. I still believe that a merger is ultimately beneficial to all parties. Increased cross-pollination, an overall larger playerbase, and an opportunity to learn from each other. NES and IOT are, at their roots, quite similar.

A merge is something I would support, but as before, the debate has fallen apart. I feel that all parties are responsible for this breakdown: IOT, NES, and the staff. Some of those from IOT have acted disappointingly childish and immature. I know they are capable of more than that. Some of those from NES have acted high and mighty and talked down to those from IOT. I've spoken to them before on #nes and know they are above that. And the staff have, particularly early on, fumbled the issue entirely. Their talk of how they were going to handle the vote gave off bad vibes, and its perfectly understandable (particularly given the previous issues NES has had with moderation) why that would set off elements of the NES community.

In particular, the off-hand comment about vote weighing was quite unwise. I do not believe the vote should be totally open, since I do believe that only those with a stake in the issue should have a proper vote. While I can understand a desire to exclude those who have left the site, the fact is that they did help to build up their community, and they do have a stake in it.

On the other hand, I don't think that this should become a referendum on the staff, as it was threatening to become a short while ago. That accomplishes nothing. I understand that its important to establish context, but the merger debate is not the proper channel to continue the arguments of a few months ago, particularly since the result of the vote will be highly unlikely to actually affect that debate.

The merger debate has merely served to inflame relations again. As tempers flare, arguments break out, and each side rushes to defend their friends, creating two entrenched sides that will only ever see the worst of each other. I, and several others, have been to #nes. Several NESers have been to our chat. In both situations, the atmosphere has been proven that it can be perfectly cordial or even friendly. IOT can be mature, and NES can be approachable. Everyone needs to take a step back, relax a bit, and let cooler heads prevail.

In addition, it would be lovely if those opposed to a merger would stop deliberately sabotaging relations.

 

[sophie]

Even before the vote-weighting talk the way the whole poll started has rankled me, and I know it has other members of #nes as well. The whole thing begins from the point of "do you want a merger yes or no?" which does little but simplify to the lowest possible denominator what is in reality a complex and nuanced question. Part of this goes back to the crucial but little discussed point that a "yes" vote in this poll is a vote for permanence while a "no" vote is one for transience. The perception, particularly with the vibe the moderators in this thread have been giving off is that if we vote "yes" that's it it's a done deal and there's no going back. Whereas based purely off experience we know that if the no's have it this poll will just come back around in 6 months to a year. There are several posters who have expressed to me in #nes that they are voting "yes" solely because they are tired of having this debate and just want to get things over with. A merger is seen as an inevitability by NESers and IOTers alike because it is presented as one by staff.

The problem with this inevitability (real or perceived) is that staff has never given any details about how, specifically the merger is going to work. As such this poll question would be as if I was shopping for a house and a Realtor walked up to me and says "do you want to buy this house yes or no?" Naturally my first reaction would be to ask for details: where is the house located, how old is it, is it in a good neighborhood, how are the schools in the area, how many br/ba does it have, has it sustained any structural damage, what does the kitchen look like, etc. And upon being asked those questions the Realtor says "never mind those details, we'll sort them out later, just tell me do you want to buy the house?" Well if I can't look at or ask about the house then my only option is to judge the Realtor, because I now have to take it on faith that this Realtor is acting on good intentions and wants to find a good house for me. So I ask about him: how many houses have you sold in the past, in what neighborhoods, can I have referrals from other people who have bought houses from you, do you have certification, etc. To this, the Realtor again replied "Who I am is not important, the only question you have to answer is 'Do you want to buy this house right now?'" I certainly want to buy a house, so I might say yes on principle, but the DETAILS matter. What if I say yes, pay the money and it turns out the house is an absolute dump? I want my money back but the Realtor says "too late you already committed!" Now I'm stuck with something that, even if I might have wanted in principle, I certainly don't want here and now I can't go back.

That is the crux of the issue here. A merger is certainly something that would be acceptable, perhaps inevitable, and for many even desirable, but the WAY in which the merger is to be done is every bit as important as whether or not it is done at all. Especially given the way the NESing community has been jerked around by the mods over the past 6 months (and the way IOT was jerked around before that, even). The staff is asking is to vote yes or no whether or not we want a merger. But what if we say yes, and then you start hashing out proposals and suddenly those people who said yes realize that maybe they were mistaken, and the way things are going certainly isn't going to work out in the way they were hoping when they said yes. What happens when opinion shifts back to being mostly against the merger. What will the mods say? "Sorry, you guys said you wanted a merger so you're getting one". And this is precisely the problem and precisely why many of the "No" voters have been kicking up a storm. The mods are asking us, yes or no, if we want a merger. Given that both mods have voted yes, it's clear that's what they want. But again, they've given no details about the merger and when we ask for details they reply LATER. When we ask questions about them, about whether or not we can trust them to have our best interests at heart they yell IRRELEVANT. The whole thing just comes off as really shifty, and again, given the way NESing has been jerked around (enough to drive a significant portion of the community - who have been hear for well over a decade - to pick up and leave en masse) before, why should we trust them. And, because both mods are coming down so heavily in favor of the merge there's a perception that what people say is ultimately irrelevant. If a no is reached the mods will just continue to bring this question up over and over again until they achieve the result they desire.

I don't speak for the NESing community as a whole. Certainly not. I don't think there is anybody who does, nor is there anybody who speaks for the IOT community. I'm just one guy who has hung around #nes and participated in the odd NES here or there for the past 5 years. But that doesn't mean I'm not part of the NESing community (although I would have been one of the ones disenfranchised by Lefty's proposed methodology). I care about this community. I wouldn't be opposed to a merger in theory, but it needs to be done in the right way. Are NESers elitist? Yeah maybe a bit, but I'd say more than anything right now they're feeling vulnerable. NESing has been through a lot over the last 6 months and things are finally beginning to settle into a new norm, and just as things are starting to settle down the staff (the very people who kicked things into flux in the first place) barge in seemingly out of the blue ready to change everything all over again. The natural reaction is to circle the wagons, especially against a larger, more unified, seemingly more organized group. To me this merger as it exists now is simply a) too soon, and b) too haphazard to be accomplished with any kind of smoothness. At a different time and with a more organized proposal this may have been met with a much greater consensus among NESers. But as it stands with the way it's presented, I just don't see how it can work.

 

[Ailedhoo]

According to AA 23 of the Yes votes are IOT in origin. Indeed there is a mix of NESers and IOTers in favor of the merge. To stop the merge would be a silencing of 65.28% of voters; Sam's alteration would simply increase the proportion of votes for YES who are not IOTers. Overall it is clear that there is a majority and attempts to sabotage the project must not be rewarded yes the moderation are to prove they will cling to a vocal minority over a silent majority and by that I am not talking of the 23 who voted against but a very small number of figures who are trying to turn the merger issue into a petty battleground with no real benefits to the communities.

Do not heed those who said the most but rather the mass consideration. This is not as complex as made out and complexity have sometimes simple answers: yes or no.

I hence declare that efforts to make this "IOT vs NES" are a fanatical falsehood. I declare that those who claim "you should all be ashamed" are trying to force the majorities to take the guilt for the actions of a about lone figures more or less who are more interested in petty tribalism than taking part in games. I declare we should stop feeding the flames and get on with the future.

I declare we start getting ready for tomorrow.

 

[Luckymoose]

According to AA 23 of the Yes votes are IOT in origin. Indeed there is a mix of NESers and IOTers in favor of the merge. To stop the merge would be a silencing of 65.28% of voters; Sam's alteration would simply increase the proportion of votes for YES who are not IOTers. Overall it is clear that there is a majority and attempts to sabotage the project must not be rewarded yes the moderation are to prove they will cling to a vocal minority over a silent majority and by that I am not talking of the 23 who voted against but a very small number of figures who are trying to turn the merger issue into a petty battleground with no real benefits to the communities.

Do not heed those who said the most but rather the mass consideration. This is not as complex as made out and complexity have sometimes simple answers: yes or no.

I hence declare that efforts to make this "IOT vs NES" are a fanatical falsehood. I declare that those who claim "you should all be ashamed" are trying to force the majorities to take the guilt for the actions of a about lone figures more or less who are more interested in petty tribalism than taking part in games. I declare we should stop feeding the flames and get on with the future.

I declare we start getting ready for tomorrow.

No one gave you that power.

 

[Ailedhoo]

No one gave you that power.

The coup says otherwise.

In all seriousness I just think we need to step back and consider the steps to improve this forum. Viva la merge! Viva la PDMA!

 

[erez87]

but I'd say more than anything right now they're feeling vulnerable.

Yes,and that's why I am against the merge. It's just another push that might harm NESing.



Also about the whole NESers vs IOTers, I don't believe any NESer at all got anything against IOTs or against IOTers as a whole. Sure there may be personal dislikes here and there, as there are among any groups of people, but I doubt any NESer really has any dislike towards IOT beyond a bit of harmless trolling. I think many NESers see IOT as a place with a higher chance to get more NESers from, or at least as another forum game on CFC.

I assume it's the same on the IOT side, but I don't know you people, so I don't know.

 

[christos200]

The last time this issue was brought up, I was against the merger because I said that it only leads to dramas. Everyone was saying in chat how this was an "elitist" approach and how we being "snob" and other things like that. I voted yes, mainly because I did not want to be seen as being "elitist". But, unfortunately, I was proven correct. This thread only caused more drama for something pointless.

I change my vote to NO. There is no need for merger if this becomes a "War" between NES and IOT. Seriously, before attempting to merge the two communities, both NESers and IOTers cooperated and had fun together. Now, we are hating each other for no reason at all.

No, Ailed, there will be no merge because there is no need to merge for a few people who are too lazy to click two buttons to go to the NES forum and because we want to cooperate, not have endless drama.

 

[Ailedhoo]

The last time this issue was brought up, I was against the merger because I said that it only leads to dramas. Everyone was saying in chat how this was an "elitist" approach and how we being "snob" and other things like that. I voted yes, mainly because I did not want to be seen as being "elitist". But, unfortunately, I was proven correct. This thread only caused more drama for something pointless.

I change my vote to NO. There is no need for merger if this becomes a "War" between NES and IOT. Seriously, before attempting to merge the two communities, both NESers and IOTers cooperated and had fun together. Now, we are hating each other for no reason at all.

No, Ailed, there will be no merge because there is no need to merge for a few people who are too lazy to click two buttons to go to the NES forum and because we want to cooperate, not have endless drama.

Need is; the people are speaking and the majority are still in favor, so there is a democratic need. The tribalism, the conflicts, will continue until the great blurring commences which will blend all in realization that our distinctions are akin to Dr Seuss's tale of The Sneetches. A majority of IOTers are in favor, as are 23 of the yes votes being not IOTers. NES and IOT should merge not for the sake of "IOT/NES" but for the sake of the blur; a great wonder as new identities emerge from the blurring. This is not about clicks; this is about removing the ultimate boundaries which hinder the clicks, the 'us vs them' mentality which will be forced out via the merge.

VIVA LA MERGE! VIVA LA ARMCHAIR EMPERORS WORLD BUILDING GAMES!

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

snip.

As I have already said, the actual process of the merger would be done cautiously, and yes, should full opinion turn against the merger, we would be at liberty to reverse the situation. We're certainly not going to oppose anything by fiat, otherwise, if allegations that moderator staff was trying to force a merger were true, we would have just done it already, as some NESers and IOTers suggested in the first place. If things don't work out in the merger process, there's always the option to revert.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Whatever the case the trial will hopefully be wonderful; I look forward to the great co-operations and the potential blurring that will see new identities emerge then just simply NES or IOT. I look forward to help ensure the glories of both houses under the new roof of a great estate we hence create together. May this be but a step in improving the forums.