New Beta Version - April 29th (4-29)

[Hinin]

Civs - Bandeirantes - now 20 CS

What is the motive behind this buff ? I'm asking because with gwennog we've been working on a combat-focused Explorer replacement, but haven't gone beyond 19 CS because we feared it would be too much compared to the Bandeirantes (a more polyvalent Explorer-replacement), so this change is big news for us.

 

[Stalker0]

Update: Sigh, the kidnap missions are not working, I am not recieving the +2 specialist bonuses in my city I'll note it on Github

 

[Gazebo]

Update: Sigh, the kidnap missions are not working, I am not recieving the +2 specialist bonuses in my city I'll note it on Github

sad!

 

[Stalker0]

So what I'm seeing now is the option for a lot of low security but pretty tedious missions, note below:

Spoiler :

At this point the yields are so low its not worth the clicks to activate the missions. In theory this is a good place to level up my spies so maybe it has a use...but low security spots don't seem worth the trouble at the moment.

UPDATE: So even trying a high security city, the yields so woeful compared to the tech steals from before.

Spoiler :

I'm getting ~6 SPT. Compared to a tech steal before worth ~125 - 250 SPT. I'm not saying we can't go lower, but this is abysmal.

 

[Gazebo]

So what I'm seeing now is the option for a lot of low security but pretty tedious missions, note below:

Spoiler :

View attachment 595303

At this point the yields are so low its not worth the clicks to activate the missions. In theory this is a good place to level up my spies so maybe it has a use...but low security spots don't seem worth the trouble at the moment.

UPDATE: So even trying a high security city, the yields so woeful compared to the tech steals from before.

Spoiler :

View attachment 595304

I'm getting ~6 SPT. Compared to a tech steal before worth ~125 - 250 SPT. I'm not saying we can't go lower, but this is abysmal.

One option id considered is compounding the security scaling with era scaling. Would make the scaling a little more linear.

see, the AI doesn’t complain about rapid-fire missions. It just does them.

 

[InkAxis]

What is the motive behind this buff ? I'm asking because with gwennog we've been working on a combat-focused Explorer replacement, but haven't gone beyond 19 CS because we feared it would be too much compared to the Bandeirantes (a more polyvalent Explorer-replacement), so this change is big news for us.

It was discussed in the Brazil thread

 

[Stalker0]

One issue with England that will have to be addressed at some point (obviously after the system is stabilized). The white tower gives bonuses for EVERY completed spy mission, regardless of duration. So I've realized I can just do security 1 missions to milk the science and gold

 

[Stalker0]

So I finally can use the Arm Rebels mission. Um....hoooooooooly crap!

Spoiler :

I can knock out an enemy capital in 2 turns, AND throw down 5 rebel units, all for the low low price of 7 turns. Even the kill chance isn't high, for this, I would at least expect an automatic spy kill.....even then it would be completely worth it.

It should be 1 turn and no rebels, and even that is still questionable. Knocking out a capital for 1 turn is effectively denying a civ like half a turn of yields, its crazy strong.

Also, any attempt to move a spy seems to mess with the event system. The event will come up, but even after selection, the icon will never leave. Fortunately a simple reload fixes it, but something is bugged with spy movement for sure.

 

[ryanmusante]

I hope you know that all of you involved in this creation are wonderful. Doing this in your free time for benefit of community, thanks again.

I've been absent a while, what are the UI changes? Can you point me to the thread?

 

[InkAxis]

I hope you know that all of you involved in this creation are wonderful. Doing this in your free time for benefit of community, thanks again.

I've been absent a while, what are the UI changes? Can you point me to the thread?

What UI changes are you referring to? The only change I can think of is a change in the icon for border growth and the tercio unit flag being changed. There's a EUI/no EUI version so maybe you just installed a different one from last time?

edit: are you talking about the ones in this changelog? Those are just UI changes to support the change to the spy system. The spy system was discussed here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/spy-rework-suggestions-here.669495/

 

[Gazebo]

Update: Sigh, the kidnap missions are not working, I am not recieving the +2 specialist bonuses in my city I'll note it on Github

Just looked, I'm simply missing a columnal modifier in the event XML. I had it in there, then took it out during testing, and forgot to put it back. D'oh.

 

[Stalker0]

Still have many turns to go, but already I am starting to feel like several of these missions could be combined to create some really solid missions.

Poison Well + Target City Defenses: Makes sense that poisoning the well would weaken the city and the garrison, for a nice solid "screw the city" mission.

Science + Gold: Your standard mission to "get bling", this would be your default mission. If we don't want spy science steal to scale like it used to, at least give me some cash for my trouble.

Pillage Tiles + Arm Local Population: So instead of spawning rebels (which is just salt in the wound), have the revolt occur with some pillaged tiles. That thematically makes sense, and gives some potent damage but doesn't scale like rebels can in severe cases.

Kidnap Specialist + Forge Artifacts: A flat penalty to all GP, and a flat bonus to all specialists. Perfect.

Disrupt Production: Remains its own thing.


That's 5 solid missions, right now 9 really does feel like too many.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the science steal should increase based on how many techs that civ has discovered that you have not.

 

[Gazebo]

I think the science steal should increase based on how many techs that civ has discovered that you have not.

The variability of that value makes it so that what you see in the TT on start might differ by completion, because of how persistent data storage with spies is handled.

 

[Stalker0]

The variability of that value makes it so that what you see in the TT on start might differ by completion, because of how persistent data storage with spies is handled.

Wouldn't it work like everything else you have set up, the value is determined when you set the mission (which would be whatever techs deficient is present), and would remain that value when the spy finished.

Whatever we do, the values absolutely need to scale more. I've basically stopped caring about my spies at this point, low security means dinky yields in a few turns, high security means slightly less dinky yields in a few more turns. I finally got a chance to use disrupt production. Its a 6 turn mission, and I have Arabia building the Porcelain Tower in 9 turns so I have a decent target. I will do a massive......25 production damage. They have 250 HPT....yeah not worth it. At this point the only use for my spies is to milk the White Tower bonuses and get the intel CS missions (which are actually doable now).

 

[Gazebo]

Wouldn't it work like everything else you have set up, the value is determined when you set the mission (which would be whatever techs deficient is present), and would remain that value when the spy finished.

Whatever we do, the values absolutely need to scale more. I've basically stopped caring about my spies at this point, low security means dinky yields in a few turns, high security means slightly less dinky yields in a few more turns. I finally got a chance to use disrupt production. Its a 6 turn mission, and I have Arabia building the Porcelain Tower in 9 turns so I have a decent target. I will do a massive......25 production damage. They have 250 HPT....yeah not worth it.

Scaling by era + potential is probably fine.

G

 

[Stalker0]

Scaling by era + potential is probably fine.

Another option, determine the average cost of a tech at that point in the game, divide it by X turns (maybe 25). That gives you a base SPT rate to work off of, and then scale the value based on the number of turns needed to complete the mission.

Btw, I don't understand the "high security gives me bigger yields". Right now it seems a wash to me, I get 200 yields in 10 turns, or 400 yields in 20 turns. Technically the first one is better because yields early > yields late....but they seem roughly equivalent. I feel like it should be less that the mission time changes with security, and more the risk of being caught and/or killed.

 

[Gazebo]

Another option, determine the average cost of a tech at that point in the game, divide it by X turns (maybe 25). That gives you a base SPT rate to work off of, and then scale the value based on the number of turns needed to complete the mission.

Btw, I don't understand the "high security gives me bigger yields". Right now it seems a wash to me, I get 200 yields in 10 turns, or 400 yields in 20 turns. Technically the first one is better because yields early > yields late....but they seem roughly equivalent. I feel like it should be less that the mission time changes with security, and more the risk of being caught and/or killed.

It does both- higher yields but also higher risk. Without said scaling, you'd only ever want to do weak cities.
BUT if the scaling is not aggressive enough, we can increase it.

 

[Stalker0]

It does both- higher yields but also higher risk. Without said scaling, you'd only ever want to do weak cities.
BUT if the scaling is not aggressive enough, we can increase it.

For certain missions (like the yield steals) absolutely I would only hit weak cities....why is that a bad thing? When I go to war I find vulnerable targets, I rarely charge at the capital straight away. Why wouldn't I target vulnerable cities with my spies?

Now for other missions like the GPP hits, the unrest one, and the city defense hit....those I would use against high security cities if the need arose. The GPP especially, often the capital is going to be the only city worth hitting to actually put a GPP penalty out there.


Keep in mind in the current system, the only city I generally ever target is the capital, as I need that for tech steal and heists are often unreliable. So you have changed it a system where I am constantly looking for new targets to hit. Its extremely dynamic, which is what I thought you wanted. why incentive me hitting the same city over and over again?

 

[Gazebo]

For certain missions (like the yield steals) absolutely I would only hit weak cities....why is that a bad thing? When I go to war I find vulnerable targets, I rarely charge at the capital straight away. Why wouldn't I target vulnerable cities with my spies?

Now for other missions like the GPP hits, the unrest one, and the city defense hit....those I would use against high security cities if the need arose. The GPP especially, often the capital is going to be the only city worth hitting to actually put a GPP penalty out there.


Keep in mind in the current system, the only city I generally ever target is the capital, as I need that for tech steal and heists are often unreliable. So you have changed it a system where I am constantly looking for new targets to hit. Its extremely dynamic, which is what I thought you wanted. why incentive me hitting the same city over and over again?

The key is 'both' - I want dynamism, but I also want there to be a reason to hit high-security cities as well.

G