New Beta Version - August 16th (8/16)

[Bromar1]

. Worst case it gets you allied status with everyone.

Friends status?

 

[HixBozo]

This tenet is very good. If there are 16 CS it's worth 160 influence per great person.

It makes a big difference for strategies with lots of great people and low gold/production, who can struggle to build lots of diplomats. Worst case it gets you allied status with everyone.

Stay away fron it in its current status and choose way more powerful tenets than this one.

No matter how often GP spawn but 160 influence per GP spread into 10 influence per CS is not enough even for a change. The AI will crush you with ordinary diplomats.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Even + 100 influence does not look like worth it. You know ideology tenets give lasting powerful effects. This one is unoptimized, kind of slipped away (maybe from old versions) and is very underwhelming as it is. Stay away from it. A single diplomat only gives + 130 influence for comparison. + 10 influence, not enough for anything meaningful.

Don't forget, it's 10 influence with every CS. In a standard game, this is up to 160 influence, more than an average duplo unit, and it's for free in a time where a lot of GP are born.

But I must agree, it's a bit low and could be higher, maybe 15?

 

[Deljade]

Arsenal of democracy adds up with all the other freedom and maybe starecraft policies, comes with few other bonuses too and you can use it AND diplomats to get an edge over others that don't. It just does it's thing as you play the game too, I haven't picked freedom in a while but I think their CS game is strong already.

In fact, I'll postpone my planned Mongolia game to do a Freedom game do as to get a feel for the tree. Any clues if a new patch is coming soon?

 

[HixBozo]

Indeed Freedom is top of my choices for Diplo victory. But not because of this tenet in question but because of a rather powerful tenet doubling the success rate of CS coups. That is a game changer and the real deal to CS alliances. Not the tiny +10 influence. But you can tinker with it if you like.

 

[CrazyG]

Friends status?

whoops. Yea I meant friends.

[QUOTE="HixBozo, post: 15904196, member: 329458"}No matter how often GP spawn but 160 influence per GP spread into 10 influence per CS is not enough even for a change. The AI will crush you with ordinary diplomats.[/QUOTE]
This is just false . If you have To the Glory of God you can faith purchase a great person every 5 turns, plus the great people you earn naturally.

 

[HixBozo]

For friends status that's fine, the requirement is really low. But I am usually much more interested in alliances than friends and the competition for alliances runs in the hundreds and even over a thousand points of influence. + 10 influence does virtually nothing for alliance goal. Usually they are already friends without this tenet by ordinary means, due to decay from quests.

 

[pineappledan]

For friends status that's fine, the requirement is really low. But I am usually much more interested in alliances than friends and the competition for alliances runs in the hundreds and even over a thousand points of influence. + 10 influence does virtually nothing for alliance goal. Usually they are already friends without this tenet by ordinary means, due to decay from quests.

any higher than 15 per GP, and this tenet would be OP for any civ that invested in GPs. For a civ that has geared and invested in GP generation, it is fairly trivial to have a new GP born every 3 turns in the late game. Between faith purchases, free GPs, and bonuses towards specialists, this can average into >100 influence every turn. On a standard map

 

[Stalker0]

Arsenal of Democracy is about maintaining friendships (aka the eternal steam of AI GDs) than it is pushing alliances.

I think the 10 influence is fine. The +40 influence for the unit gift I still think is garbage but I lost the popular vote on that one

All in all the tenant is not useless, that said I don’t think that great either

 

[HixBozo]

Pick it if there is nothing else to pick. Most people will probably pick the spy coup tenet in the same tree which totally eclipses this one and gives you alliances outright

 

[JamesNinelives]

Remember Arsenal of Democracy gives you several things. The influence per great person is only part of it.

Edit: also, is something in the works for not being able to raze cities? I'm sure I've seen it mentioned before, but I don't see any issues related to it on Github.

 

[John.B.C]

Maintaining happiness above 50% throughout the game is a true challange these days. Nothing has changed according to G, but I can't help noticing a difference from before. Allying three merchantile city-states helped me alot during my last progress game (13 cities) thogether with unhappiness reducing buildings (10-15 public works), luxury trading etc.; I managed to have it pending between 44-60% throughout the whole game (approx 50-60% from industrial and onwards). I never had to halt growth, even though it was a close call. Worth mentioning is: I had several games before this one, ending in partisans and finally a revolting city. I had to go back to the drawing board and finally I managed to play around it and to keep up.

I like it though, it pose a challange and I'm up for it. I don't consider it way 'off', it's just hard to keep in check and one has to keep an close eye to happiness throughout the whole game; befriending city-states, building the appropriate buildings and trading every possible luxury. Building alot of 'public works' seem more than crucial and can't be neglected.

Spoiler happiness :

As can be seen it was a challange... Not much more to build here besides a couple of buildings and more public works. But then this city was under good control and hadn't any need for further growth nor to build anything else. I don't know if it's this patch or an earlier version where things has changed, but I'm more used to wining my games with happiness close to 100. Here global was 56% (the same turn I launched my space ship).

This is not an critique of how the system works. I'm just saying it's tough even though well balanced imo.

 

[Recursive]

Minor diplomacy changes for next version:

Rewrote all the code for the AI's opinion modifier table
- Observer players who mouse over AI opinion tables should simply get the "There haven't been any major incidents..." message instead of any modifiers.
- Mousing over a human's portrait will now only show certain indicators in the opinion table for the player's information, and will not show number values since those are useless
- Teammates no longer display negative modifiers, since those don't affect their opinion of you. Some are still presented for information but have a value of 0 and show up in a white color.
- Fixed some issues with debug mode displaying empty modifiers
- Code cleanup for efficiency and readability
- Restored color to approach hint message if the table is otherwise empty

Biggest change: AI can now lie, conceal negative modifiers, and pretend they aren't hostile even when they aren't visibly FRIENDLY
- They will do so when they feel hiding the truth is in their own interests (e.g. they are AFRAID), and they will not do so when they feel showing the truth is in their own interests
- AI can conceal SOME modifiers (namely those relating to disputes) without concealing ALL of them
- AI can conceal more modifiers than before
- AI can occasionally pretend that there are "no contested borders" or no wonder/City-State competition when they are secretly angry at you, to give you a false sense of security
- AI will deliberately hide modifiers when they are preparing for a war, and for other reasons like if you're a bad target
- AI will always show modifiers to their masters, to players who resurrected them, and to players they are HOSTILE towards or have denounced
- Declaring war on the AI will not reveal modifiers unless they were already planning an attack
- Transparent Diplomacy or the Show All Opinion Modifiers option can still be used if you don't like this change
- However, these will simply show all modifiers without identifying which ones the AI would hide if it could, so you still can't tell if they're lying to you (except by turning on Show All Opinion Modifiers midgame)

AIs now automatically avoid settling near human teammates, even if they aren't asked

Removed opinion penalty for asking the AI not to spy on you

Removed "killed or captured civilians" opinion penalty from trade units

Debug mode (see DiploAIOptions.sql) can now be used to force the AI to agree to a (valid) coop war request, as if they were your teammate

To-do in future:
- Better handling for promises
- Improved opinion modifier value system
- Allow AI to make use of Transparent Diplomacy / Show All Opinion Modifiers with other AIs

 

[azum4roll]

You can get a higher city RCS by garrisoning only a ship in the city in this version. Pretty broken.

 

[HixBozo]

You can get a higher city RCS by garrisoning only a ship in the city in this version. Pretty broken.

Not really related to your post but reminds me of something I saw the other day and never knew it existed. Probably intended, does not bother me, but never seen it was possible.

If you build a Fort next to a ocean tile, any ship can enter the Fort and rest there. Looks funny because the fort is inland structure and you see a ship hiding in an inland hex.

Not sure if the ships can heal there, but probably yes as long as it is homeland territory.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Not really related to your post but reminds me of something I saw the other day and never knew it existed. Probably intended, does not bother me, but never seen it was possible.

If you build a Fort next to a ocean tile, any ship can enter the Fort and rest there. Looks funny because the fort is inland structure and you see a ship hiding in an inland hex.

Not sure if the ships can heal there, but probably yes as long as it is homeland territory.

Yep, that's intended .

That property is whats allows you to build 1-tile canals with forts or a citedal, and a 2-tile canal with one of each next to each other .

 

[HixBozo]

Yep, that's intended .

That property is whats allows you to build 1-tile canals with forts or a citedal, and a 2-tile canal with one of each next to each other .

Interesting, especially the 2-tile passage. That's actually cool. Like the Panama canal.

 

[2506]

Minor diplomacy changes for next version:

Rewrote all the code for the AI's opinion modifier table
- Observer players who mouse over AI opinion tables should simply get the "There haven't been any major incidents..." message instead of any modifiers.
- Mousing over a human's portrait will now only show certain indicators in the opinion table for the player's information, and will not show number values since those are useless
- Teammates no longer display negative modifiers, since those don't affect their opinion of you. Some are still presented for information but have a value of 0 and show up in a white color.
- Fixed some issues with debug mode displaying empty modifiers
- Code cleanup for efficiency and readability
- Restored color to approach hint message if the table is otherwise empty

Biggest change: AI can now lie, conceal negative modifiers, and pretend they aren't hostile even when they aren't visibly FRIENDLY
- They will do so when they feel hiding the truth is in their own interests (e.g. they are AFRAID), and they will not do so when they feel showing the truth is in their own interests
- AI can conceal SOME modifiers (namely those relating to disputes) without concealing ALL of them
- AI can conceal more modifiers than before
- AI can occasionally pretend that there are "no contested borders" or no wonder/City-State competition when they are secretly angry at you, to give you a false sense of security
- AI will deliberately hide modifiers when they are preparing for a war, and for other reasons like if you're a bad target
- AI will always show modifiers to their masters, to players who resurrected them, and to players they are HOSTILE towards or have denounced
- Declaring war on the AI will not reveal modifiers unless they were already planning an attack
- Transparent Diplomacy or the Show All Opinion Modifiers option can still be used if you don't like this change
- However, these will simply show all modifiers without identifying which ones the AI would hide if it could, so you still can't tell if they're lying to you (except by turning on Show All Opinion Modifiers midgame)

AIs now automatically avoid settling near human teammates, even if they aren't asked

Removed opinion penalty for asking the AI not to spy on you

Removed "killed or captured civilians" opinion penalty from trade units

To-do in future:
- Better handling for promises
- Improved opinion modifier value system
- Allow AI to make use of Transparent Diplomacy / Show All Opinion Modifiers with other AIs

I really like the AI being able to conceal so much. Question: do they conceal strictly due to circumstance, or does personality factor in also?

 

[Recursive]

I really like the AI being able to conceal so much. Question: do they conceal strictly due to circumstance, or does personality factor in also?

Yes and no: The code I added only considers the current situation, including the AI's approach and opinion, not any flavors - however, certain AIs are more likely to be deceptive than others based on personality.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Interesting, especially the 2-tile passage. That's actually cool. Like the Panama canal.

You can actually come across rare situations where it's possible to chain it together with a couple cities to create canals allowing naval transport through 5+ tile continents.

ocean ~~ city -- fort - citadel - fort -- city ~~ ocean

Lakes can also sometimes help fill in the gaps and provide interesting scenarios.