New Beta Version - June 14th (6/14)

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Crime based on defense is a feature I have really enjoyed in Vox Populi. In vanilla, I would leave all but my border cities ungarrisoned and without defense buildings. Now, I have to make a strategic choice about whether to pull that tercio out of my capital whenever nearby Belgrade gets swarmed by a barbarian horde. If I ungarrison too many cities, there goes my happiness. But maybe I can deal with that for a turn or too.
Removing defense entirely from the formula seems like an invitation for sloppy play like undefended megacities in the middle of the empire.
It seems like Crime is more analagous to Religious Unrest than other Unhappiness measures. If I need to fix Religious Unrest, I buy inquisitors. If I need to fix Crime, it should be solved by keeping more units local, not more micromanaging of workers and specialists.
 
saranwali said:
Crime based on defense is a feature I have really enjoyed in Vox Populi. In vanilla, I would leave all but my border cities ungarrisoned and without defense buildings. Now, I have to make a strategic choice about whether to pull that tercio out of my capital whenever nearby Belgrade gets swarmed by a barbarian horde. If I ungarrison too many cities, there goes my happiness. But maybe I can deal with that for a turn or too.
Removing defense entirely from the formula seems like an invitation for sloppy play like undefended megacities in the middle of the empire.
It seems like Crime is more analagous to Religious Unrest than other Unhappiness measures. If I need to fix Religious Unrest, I buy inquisitors. If I need to fix Crime, it should be solved by keeping more units local, not more micromanaging of workers and specialists.
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It's not necessarily a good thing that you build walls and castles in all cities just to reduce crime. Without it cities can be more diverse, like more defense on border and other infrastructure inside empire. I like the latter more.
 
saranwali said:
Crime based on defense is a feature I have really enjoyed in Vox Populi. In vanilla, I would leave all but my border cities ungarrisoned and without defense buildings. Now, I have to make a strategic choice about whether to pull that tercio out of my capital whenever nearby Belgrade gets swarmed by a barbarian horde. If I ungarrison too many cities, there goes my happiness. But maybe I can deal with that for a turn or too.
Removing defense entirely from the formula seems like an invitation for sloppy play like undefended megacities in the middle of the empire.
It seems like Crime is more analagous to Religious Unrest than other Unhappiness measures. If I need to fix Religious Unrest, I buy inquisitors. If I need to fix Crime, it should be solved by keeping more units local, not more micromanaging of workers and specialists.
Click to expand...
This feature is still present if you go Authority. +1 happiness per garrison.
 
I propose allowing soon-to-die AIs to capitulate to the victor without having to reach the magical war score number; I wanted to vassalize Venice but could not do so despite having brought the city itself to single-digit HP with my units surrounding it, all tiles pillaged, but without enough Venetian units to kill. Surely the beaten up single city civ should prefer life over death?

Also. I really miss seeing AIs using the demand function. They just never do it anymore. What's up with that?
 
saranwali said:
Crime based on defense is a feature I have really enjoyed in Vox Populi. In vanilla, I would leave all but my border cities ungarrisoned and without defense buildings. Now, I have to make a strategic choice about whether to pull that tercio out of my capital whenever nearby Belgrade gets swarmed by a barbarian horde. If I ungarrison too many cities, there goes my happiness. But maybe I can deal with that for a turn or too.
Removing defense entirely from the formula seems like an invitation for sloppy play like undefended megacities in the middle of the empire.
It seems like Crime is more analagous to Religious Unrest than other Unhappiness measures. If I need to fix Religious Unrest, I buy inquisitors. If I need to fix Crime, it should be solved by keeping more units local, not more micromanaging of workers and specialists.
Click to expand...

I mean the fact that your citizens get upset if your freaking platoon of Tercios deploys to the front-lines from the safe capital during freaking war-times goes to show a major problem with the current system. Only a culture that loves the military so much they want it to be pervasively present would feel that way... like authority. Which still would.

You just mentioned correctly that skipping defensive buildings is sloppy play. Feel free to do that versus me. I'm 100% going to flank with some drill knights and take your biggest, most poorly defended cities before you blink.

The only mechanic you should need to encourage proper defensive play is to your enemies having the ability to take cities. I feel like this change would improve gameplay, not hurt it. You can deploy your troops where you like, decide to defend what you like, and if you're wrong lose what you messed up on.

glider1 said:
Love the idea but don't you have to improve the wide playing AI's defense to pillaging? A human goes through the backdoor and pillages the wide AI's farms and to a lesser extent mines and induces a revolt at a critical point in the war. Is the AI good enough to return the favour? Not in my experience.
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Honestly I don't think it's a terrible idea to make pillaging the backlines a little more effective if that's what happens. Super early it can mess up their economy, but later in war it never seems to matter. The happiness drain just doesn't seem to matter. I think the AI has gotten better at defense, and if they need some help I think that's something that can be worked on.
 
ElliotS said:
I mean the fact that your citizens get upset if your freaking platoon of Tercios deploys to the front-lines from the safe capital during freaking war-times goes to show a major problem with the current system. Only a culture that loves the military so much they want it to be pervasively present would feel that way... like authority. Which still would.
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Its not that citizens would be upset that the soldiers left. In many societies the military had police rolls. Some people saw a time of war as an opportunity to escalate criminal activity. Internal bandits and organized crime commonly rose during a time of war, the government just had less resources to fight it. Your people aren't mad at your for fighting the war, they are just (reasonably) upset over an increase in local burglaries and such.

ElliotS said:
You just mentioned correctly that skipping defensive buildings is sloppy play. Feel free to do that versus me. I'm 100% going to flank with some drill knights and take your biggest, most poorly defended cities before you blink.
Click to expand...
Against AI, walls are usually just a happiness building for me about 80% of the time.

A good human player can punish this, but the AI doesn't. Even in human games if you are scouting well (you should be) you can see it coming and builds walls or castles pretty quickly if you can invest. Humans will pillage and steal workers all the time so you should have units around all your borders anyways.
 
I’m going to start a new thread wrt this crime overhaul... we need a poll and stuff, and I feel like we are diluting this thread
ElliotS said:
I mean the fact that your citizens get upset if your freaking platoon of Tercios deploys to the front-lines from the safe capital during freaking war-times goes to show a major problem with the current system. Only a culture that loves the military so much they want it to be pervasively present would feel that way... like authority. Which still would.
Click to expand...
Not that it should inform our decisions about this, but your comment betrays a deep misunderstanding of the military's role in civil unrest.

First off, your comment assumes that police even existed as an institution for most of history. The oldest institution you could properly call "police" was established in 1667 in France. for most of human history, banditry and civil disorder has been handled by the army.

Even in modern times, and especially during wartime, riots and social order is maintained primarily by the army. War creates more civil unrest than any peacetime police force could properly handle. Looters, rioters, fifth columns, all primarily dealt with by local garrisons during wartime. You can look at the German Landwehr, or British LDV for modern examples of this.

You live in Chicago, within 500km of the longest demilitarized border in the world (though we will see how long that lasts with your Cheeto-in-Chief). You should understand how exceptional your own circumstance is, that the closest military base to you is probably Arlington, VA
 
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pineappledan said:
You live in Chicago, within 500km of the longest demilitarized border in the world (though we will see how long that lasts with your Cheeto-in-Chief). You should understand how exceptional your own circumstance is, that the closest military base to you is probably Arlington, VA
Click to expand...

Not to mention how many people shoot each other in Chicago, maybe it would be ideal to place an death robot there to get that crime handled...
 
pineappledan said:
Not that it should inform our decisions about this, but your comment betrays a deep misunderstanding of the military's role in civil unrest.
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City defense and the actual army are different. Your city defense includes a garrison, hence the ability to attack without a unit in the city. I feel like having the whole damn army at a city would be draining on it's citizens, who would be peeved at the constant occupation.
 
yogiebere said:
So how would food be calculated into Crime? I assume it would be excess food (growth)? Fat citizens = less crime?
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Yeah, fat citizen which commit a crime are too slow to run away and get easily caught by the police = less crime :)

Edit: Damn... you were faster ;)
 
chicorbeef said:
I think it should be raw Food, not Growth. Growth is too readily impacted by various policies and whatnot and favours Tall unfairly imo.
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I have the concern, if you are already facing high unhappiness by too much population and you stop growth to get control over it, you even make it worse.
This is the normal strategy of the AI, at the moment they face a lot of unhappiness, they stop growth and use their citizen as specialists to fight needs. But in the same time, this would lead to much more unhappiness. And we have generated the next happiness downward spiral.
Using Food+Hammer is a more stable value. In most cases, if your food is high, you didnt have that much hammer, and vice versa.
 
BiteInTheMark said:
I have the concern, if you are already facing high unhappiness by too much population and you stop growth to get control over it, you even make it worse.
This is the normal strategy of the AI, at the moment they face a lot of unhappiness, they stop growth and use their citizen as specialists to fight needs. But in the same time, this would lead to much more unhappiness. And we have generated the next happiness downward spiral.
Using Food+Hammer is a more stable value. In most cases, if your food is high, you didnt have that much hammer, and vice versa.
Click to expand...
I agree, Food + Hammer should be used. In the case of Food, it should be raw Food that is used, and not Growth, imo.

We should carry these discussions over into the other thread now.
 
I really dislike that the tech tree doesn't show what stuff comes with every tech in an easy way. I find out new stuff each game because of it, by "hoovering" the pointer over the tech. Can't it be graphically redone in some way for a better overview? I guess it would have been done by now if possible.
 
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