Altars are only Antiquity
Temples are Exploration (gotta keep with the times)
pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Abbasid
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pre-release info
Temples are Exploration (gotta keep with the times)
queenpea
Emperor
No need for human sacrifice, happily, base game does not include religious schism.
Paisley_Trees
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Interesting! But I am still unconvinced this is the best representation of Abbasid mosque architecture. The Ibn Tulun structure you're referring to is the ablution fountain that was a later Mamluk addition from the 13th century, although the fountain it replaced also had a dome cover, it still isn't a single-domed mosque. al-Kazimiyya is interesting but it is primarily a shrine, and represents better the shrine architecture of the Safavid period, as it was reconstructed then (although, again it originally did have a dome according to written sources). Besides Samarra, we also have the Mosque of al-Mansur in Baghdad which I believe was the Friday mosque of the city, and while it doesn't survive today, we do know it was a hypostyle mosque that rejected the Umayyad domed models and took the Prophet's Mosque in Medina as the model. Scholars have argued that one of the key architectural differences between the Umayyads and Abbasids is the domeless Abbasid mosques, which was very much intentionally done to distinguish themselves from their predecessors, like the two examples we have in Samarra (Mosque of abu Dulaf and Mosque of al-Mutawakkil), which I think are really interesting representations of a specific Abbasid architectural style! The second distinct feature is the single spiral minaret that is not attached to the mosque, which I would have loved to see here, since one of the appealing parts of having era specific civilizations was this idea that we could really delve into the specifics and aesthetics of that civ! BUT, I've been going back through my notes on Abbasid architecture today, and there is an interesting building called basically 'domed building' that its function is a little bit unknown, but has some burials underneath (so maybe a tomb structure) or maybe was a shrine for circumambulation for those unable to make it to the dome of the rock, so I was wrong to say it is totally unique
al-Mutawakkil's great mosque in Samarra
Mosque of Abu Dulaf in Samarra
dome of the rock copy in Samarra
source?
queenpea
Emperor
Deductive reasoning? Religion is being introduced at its first concrete stages in Act II of this game. I do not see a pathway for schisms, or even an emphasis on religion, in this first draft.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Sadly (in this respect, at least), the Al-Khulafa Mosque was rebuilt in 1960 - 64 on a site that was recognized as "smaller than the original" and to architectural plans that were "extracted from various periods of Islamic architecture".
- In other words, there was no real attempt to reproduce the original mosque.
From the original mosque the single minaret did survive, and was incoporated into the new design:
This is the minaret as it looked a little over 100 years ago.
This is the modern mosque in Baghdad:
It's pretty obvious where the Dome model for the in-game graphic came from. Unfortunately they seem to have added more minarets, which is absolutely incorrect for Abbasid mosques, both here and at Samarra.
It could have been worse: before the end of the 7th century, here were NO minarets on most mosques, so gamers would be quite confused at a model from that period.
- In other words, there was no real attempt to reproduce the original mosque.
From the original mosque the single minaret did survive, and was incoporated into the new design:
This is the minaret as it looked a little over 100 years ago.
This is the modern mosque in Baghdad:
It's pretty obvious where the Dome model for the in-game graphic came from. Unfortunately they seem to have added more minarets, which is absolutely incorrect for Abbasid mosques, both here and at Samarra.
It could have been worse: before the end of the 7th century, here were NO minarets on most mosques, so gamers would be quite confused at a model from that period.
Yeah, you can definitely stick more accurately to history and show off some progressions in architecture as the OG era-separated Humankind did it. Humankind mostly used real buildings for the specific districts but in the end it meant that telling the districts apart was pretty hard. Civ 7 really focuses much more on identifiability and readability over history.
Think this sort of simplified system applied to wholly Arabic architecture where you have to make it obvious that "This is the Arabian civ!" with the Persians, West/East Africans, Mughals and what-not in the game living in the same architectural tradition. Like how there's not even a hint of a doubt about the Mongolian city not being Mongolian because everything gets bright green glazed rooftiles, cupolas, etc.
gdr_willter
Korean Civ Fan
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The interesting point about this image is that the ancient Korean buildings of Silla and early Goryeo are surprisingly looks like the Japanese building in this image. They mainly were colored red and white and had more simple roof than Joseon's one. The different can be found from dancheong (the decorations under the roof), the ancient Korean one was more colorful than Joseon's(mainly green) and Japanese(mainly red).
I mean the image was meant to highlight the non-fitting stereotype that establishes a clear and well delineated "style" in favor of complex reality.
Spoiler :
8housesofelixir
Emperor
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A small nitpick: If I recall correctly, the word for the "community" in Arabic is "jama'ah," and this word is sometimes used to refer to the "scholar community" rather than "ulema."
gdr_willter
Korean Civ Fan
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Yes, even in Korea, people don't like the accurate early Korean buildings because it seems like Japanese. So many restored old buildings were colored with Joseon styleI mean the image was meant to highlight the non-fitting stereotype that establishes a clear and well delineated "style" in favor of complex reality.
Spoiler :
I'm thinking about it with the Age system... Some similar architectural style adopted from different civs in different age, I consider that it can be a good idea. It can reduce the amount of work to design a lot of civs.
Ottoman empire which has combination style of Persia and Abbasid? It sounds good for me, but I'm not sure because of the lack of knowledge.
Thanks for the info, I wasn't aware that the fountain in the Ibn Tulun Mosque is a later addition - it fit's the central courtyard of the mosque so well.Interesting! But I am still unconvinced this is the best representation of Abbasid mosque architecture. The Ibn Tulun structure you're referring to is the ablution fountain that was a later Mamluk addition from the 13th century, although the fountain it replaced also had a dome cover, it still isn't a single-domed mosque. al-Kazimiyya is interesting but it is primarily a shrine, and represents better the shrine architecture of the Safavid period, as it was reconstructed then (although, again it originally did have a dome according to written sources). Besides Samarra, we also have the Mosque of al-Mansur in Baghdad which I believe was the Friday mosque of the city, and while it doesn't survive today, we do know it was a hypostyle mosque that rejected the Umayyad domed models and took the Prophet's Mosque in Medina as the model. Scholars have argued that one of the key architectural differences between the Umayyads and Abbasids is the domeless Abbasid mosques, which was very much intentionally done to distinguish themselves from their predecessors, like the two examples we have in Samarra (Mosque of abu Dulaf and Mosque of al-Mutawakkil), which I think are really interesting representations of a specific Abbasid architectural style! The second distinct feature is the single spiral minaret that is not attached to the mosque, which I would have loved to see here, since one of the appealing parts of having era specific civilizations was this idea that we could really delve into the specifics and aesthetics of that civ! BUT, I've been going back through my notes on Abbasid architecture today, and there is an interesting building called basically 'domed building' that its function is a little bit unknown, but has some burials underneath (so maybe a tomb structure) or maybe was a shrine for circumambulation for those unable to make it to the dome of the rock, so I was wrong to say it is totally unique
View attachment 707147
al-Mutawakkil's great mosque in Samarra
View attachment 707148
Mosque of Abu Dulaf in Samarra
View attachment 707151
dome of the rock copy in Samarra
I agree that a hypostyle mosque would have been a better choice for the Abbasids, and my relatively good guess on their design from this week actually included this (although I wasn't sure about the best name for that). One reason that comes to my mind why it isn't the case, is that they didn't want a unique building to look similar to the mosque of Samarra which might return as an (unassociated) world wonder at some point. But if such issues play a role in the design, the unique building probably wouldn't simply be called "mosque" as other civs and wonders at some point might have/be mosques. So, in the end maybe it's just about readability: most people take a domed building with thin towers to be a mosque and recognize it as such within the fracture of a second. A courtyard surrounded with "flat" buildings doesn't have the same effect (and for some people might collide a bit with a cloister that is likely to come as a UB at some point as well).
What do you think the odds are that this guy from the Switch video is the Mamluk?
Good catch!
Not quite the Abbasid timeframe and not exactly the look, but something similar to this Ottoman Era Mamluk armor might have been used as the model. Still, I wouldn't necessarily picture an early Mamluk with such heavy armor and horse armor.
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I would disagree with that. I think Act II will have a strong focus on religion (the Cultural Legacy will probably be a “Religion Victory”)
That plus the layering emphasis gives a role for schisms.
This would be an odd UU for Ming, right? So it‘s probably just the East Asian variant of the standard knight unit.Nah, that's a Jin horseman.
Good catch!
Not quite the Abbasid timeframe and not exactly the look, but something similar to this Ottoman Era Mamluk armor might have been used as the model. Still, I wouldn't necessarily picture an early Mamluk with such heavy armor and horse armor.
I think Firaxis will likely use the “long Abbasid” timeframe of 750–1570 for designing the civ. So I wouldn’t be surprised to see a Cairo Mamluk-era cavalry unit, even if the Caliphate itself had only nominal religious significance at this time. A similar approach is taken in Age of Empires 4, and it feels a lot better than restricting the Abbasids to a very early-medieval aesthetic.
chaosprophet
King
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From what they said so far, religion while having more importance on exploration, is not a separated thing with a separated wield like in 6. Which is why there isn't a religion legacy path and victory. In the Shawnee stream they mentioned how the cultural legacy path is exploration is the one that is most closely tied to religion, but all 4 have a secondary path that benefits from strong religion play.
8housesofelixir
Emperor
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Interesting how the visual of this knight unit is almost identical to this figurine, which is just a random reconstruction of a Jin-era "Iron Pagoda" heavy cavalry on the internet.
Whatever the case may be, someone in the FXS art team clearly used this particular reconstruction as their design reference.
