pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Qing

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Chinese historian here - some FYI:



The 行 in 行商 is the same as in 公行, but we are facing an interesting case of homograph here. This 行 is pronounced as hang2, which means "guild," "business," or "industry"; for instance, 银行, "bank," is lit. "silver guild." Meanwhile, the "itinerant" or "traveling" 行 is pronounced xing2. 行商 xingshang and 行商 hangshang are two very different words!

What are more correct pronounciations of '行商' ? Should it be 'Hangshang' (Guild merchant), or 'Xingshang' (Travelling merchant)?

Are they full civilians or state contractor of sort? Qing (and even China today) never fonds of free trade much, any big business SHOULD be done by government. Not sure if this one is a standing Chinese doctrine that lasts even to this day? and China loves state monopoly alot.
And what about Konghang? are they also full civilian? a contractor or civil servant dealing with foreign trades?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I love this Qing civ design!

Meee too! much better in concept than Mexico (a very challenge one, something that when designed can result in a rather controversial final works and no unanimousity).
While much of Qing policy is bad. Translations into game is good.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Not at all true.
The cornerstone of the Spanish New World trade, starting in the 16th century, was China.

That was because China's coinage was based on silver, and China did not have enough silver to power its huge internal economy.
The answer was (South) American silver, delivered by Spanish ships to Manila where they traded with Chinese merchants for Chinese goods like porcelain and silk, which then went back to Spain and Europe. In total value, this trade from America to China to Europe taking a profit for Spain at every stop may have been worth more than the direct movement of gold and silver from the Americas to Spain

- And yes, I shall be looking to see if I can pull off something similar in Civ VII with the new Trade Network system . . .

And is there any European pirates knowing this? or did any rivals deploy privateers to sting Spanish Manila Galleon fleets?

 

[8housesofelixir]

As a native Chinese who worked as a historian and translator, I often, maybe understandably, became very pedantic about the designs of historical Chinese dynasties in Civ 7. I still harbor some doubts about the anachronic "Chu-Ko-Nu" unit name and the largely tasteless Ming design. In addition, having Wang Yangming (1472-1529) as a Han great person is plainly wrong - he was born in Ming dynasty!

However, the Qing design is fantastic. Focusing on Qing's affluence and prosperous internal trade is a great take, as is the Bannermen UU choice. The Shiguan, Qianzhuang, and Huiguan triad is incredibly spot on - Huiguan is one of the things that defined the Qing urban and social space; it was the cream of autonomous social organizations in pre-modern China (besides 宗族, of course).

Summarizing a massive empire into a couple of unique mechanics is not easy, not to say that a Qing design could drive to a controversial ground, but what we have here is a very good design, both historically sound and mechanically interesting. I would say that FXS devs certainly did their research on Qing (and I also hope they could tweak some of the issues with Han and Ming, esp. the Wang Yangming naming).


(My only critique of the design would be the name "Chuang Guandong." Historically, the peak of the Guandong immigration movement only started in 1890s, near the very end of the Qing reign. Most importantly, this particular land rush movement was nearly completely outside of Qing control rather than a result of direct encouragement like a policy - in fact, it partly contributed to Qing's downfall. I would recommend using a more generic policy term, such as 移民实边 Yimin Shibian "using immigration to fill the frontier".)

 

[8housesofelixir]

What are more correct pronounciations of '行商' ? Should it be 'Hangshang' (Guild merchant), or 'Xingshang' (Travelling merchant)? Are they full civilians or state contractor of sort?

As I said, these are two different words. There is no "more correct" way to express them, since they meant completely different things: cohong merchants and traveling merchants. And since the guide specifics that it is "Hangshang," then it should refer to the cohong merchants.

Konghang is just the modern pinyin for Cohong, they meant the same thing.

And yes, Hangshang were state contractors. The most famous were the Thirteen Factories or Thirteen Hangs of Canton (Guangdong), and some of the Hong owners became the wealthiest men at the time, such as Wu Bingjian. I would say it is a lasting Chinese policy, as even today the Hong Kong market is still populated by state-controlled enterprises from the mainland.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

(My only critique of the design would be the name "Chuang Guandong." Historically, the peak of the immigration movement only started in 1890s, near the very end of the Qing reign. Most importantly, this land rush movement was nearly completely outside of Qing control rather than a result of direct encouragement like a policy - in fact, it partly contributed to Qing's downfall. I would recommend using a more generic policy term, such as 移民实边 Yimin Shibian "using immigration to fill the frontier".)

Why Yimin Shibian leads to the fall of Qing? did it weakened Manchurian's grip?

and .. you use Simplified Chinese here. while a table use Traditional characters which looks much better.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

As I said, these are two different words. There is no "more correct" way to express them, since they meant completely different things: cohong merchants and traveling merchants. And since the guide specifics that it is "Hangshang," then it should refer to the cohong merchants.

Konghang is just the modern pinyin for Cohong, they meant the same thing.

And yes, Hangshang were state contractors. The most famous were the Thirteen Factories or Thirteen Hangs of Canton (Guangdong), and some of the Hong owners became the wealthiest men at the time, such as Wu Bingjian. I would say it is a lasting Chinese policy, as even today the Hong Kong market is still populated by state-controlled enterprises from the mainland.

And that's all before 1949 Revolution. And this made Government Corporates a 'Chinese National Identity'. There's good and bad things about this though.
In case of Railroads, State controls is good because passenger train services can be provided cheap. Also the flow of troops are facilitated.
The Bad is that it needs annual budgetry alloted by the government to run.

And did Phraya Tak really has friends in Cohong? how did he, as well as his former superior (The Last King of Ayutthaya) knew that Qing was invading Kaungbaung Empire at that time? And Phraya Tak's' famous 'Sortie to Chantaburi' was actually endorsed (or even ordered) by the King himself. to muster East Asian Reinforcements using Chinese and Vietnamese residents of Chantaburi Domain. I'm not really sure if Emperor Qianglong waged wars against Burma on Two Fronts (The other fronts was through Siamese, which continued through Thonburi and later Rattanakosin era for a while.)

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The video short has views of the Gusa unique unit.

View attachment 714489 View attachment 714490

Bannermen wears exactly the same studded brigandines with different helmets. I'm not sure if Qing Army of 1850s still wear armor like this while everybody else ditched these.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I forgot to mention one thing in the previous comment - the Chengde Mountain Resort is also a fantastic wonder choice.

Don't let the name "Mountain Resort" fool you; this place was not just a holiday vacation complex but in fact the summer capital of the Qing. Every year, the emperor would stay in Chengde for at least four months and meet Inner Asian figures - the Mongols, the Tibetans, the Muslim leaders, and the other Manchu nobles. It was also where Emperor Qianlong received the famous Macartney Embassy from the United Kingdom. If Beijing was the bureaucratic center of the Qing, then Chengde was the diplomatic center.

As such, we can see where the wonder's ability to "Increased Culture for every other civilization with which you have a Trade Route" comes from; the resort is precisely where these activities happen.

The design of the Chengde Mountain Resort wonder goes beyond the stereotypical "splendid Imperial Chinese palace." It offers us a glimpse into how the Early Modern Chinese empire was actually ruled and governed - not just by civil servants busy with examinations, but also by a complex web of diplomatic networks that upheld the entire tributary-based world order.


Edit - the model of the wonder is based on the Xiao Jinshan 小金山 part of the Resort, itself modeled after the Jinshan in Zhenjiang.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I forgot to mention one thing in the previous comment - the Chengde Mountain Resort is also a fantastic wonder choice.

Don't let the name "Mountain Resort" fool you; this place was not just a holiday vacation complex but in fact the summer capital of the Qing. Every year, the emperor would stay in Chengde for at least four months and meet Inner Asian figures - the Mongols, the Tibetans, the Muslim leaders, and the other Manchu nobles. It was also where Emperor Qianlong received the famous Macartney Embassy from the United Kingdom. If Beijing was the bureaucratic center of the Qing, then Chengde was the diplomatic center.

As such, we can see where the wonder's ability to "Increased Culture for every other civilization with which you have a Trade Route" comes from; the resort is precisely where these activities happen.

The design of the Chengde Mountain Resort wonder goes beyond the stereotypical "splendid Imperial Chinese palace." It offers us a glimpse into how the Chinese empire was actually ruled - not just by civil servants busy with examinations, but also by a complex web of diplomatic networks that upheld the entire tributary-based world order.

Wrong nomeclatures. This must be 'Summer Palace' mentioned frequently in Qing History. so the correct name should be 'Chengde Summer Palace' right?

And what about diplomats to the East? (Japan, or Ryukyu, and Korea) and South? particulalry Southeast Asia? Where did they meet the Qing Emperor?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Wrong nomeclatures. This must be 'Summer Palace' mentioned frequently in Qing History. so the correct name should be 'Chengde Summer Palace' right?

No, the Summer Palace was what the Europeans called Yuanming Yuan. Chengde Mountain Resort was literally called "Summer Mountain Resort" 避暑山莊 in Chinese.

 

[gdr_willter]

Wrong nomeclatures. This must be 'Summer Palace' mentioned frequently in Qing History. so the correct name should be 'Chengde Summer Palace' right?

Maybe you are thinking Beijing Summer Palace.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

No, the Summer Palace was what the Europeans called Yuanming Yuan. Chengde Mountain Resort was literally called "Summer Mountain Resort" 避暑山莊 in Chinese.

Then it should be named 'Chengde Embassey Park' instead . Qing diplomacy system isn't really a simple matter of paying the Emperor a tribute and then go shoppings and sales.

 

[gdr_willter]

Then it should be named 'Chengde Embassey Park' instead . Qing diplomacy system isn't really a simple matter of paying the Emperor a tribute and then go shoppings and sales.

Don't rename the real heritage site which has its own name IRL.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Don't rename the real heritage site which has its own name IRL.

So Official name is also Chengde Summer Resort?

 

[notNamed]

Bannermen wears exactly the same studded brigandines with different helmets. I'm not sure if Qing Army of 1850s still wear armor like this while everybody else ditched these.

Unique units don't change over time like the general unit do, right?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Unique units don't change over time like the general unit do, right?

Not sure. but Legion probably does.
And personally there should be. representing how did they adapt to the changing world.
First bannermen uses matchlock muskets,
then Percussion rifles.
later, bolt action rifles.
and later, modern weapons. and Manchuguo Army Uniform.

Think of Nihang in Civ6, First Nihang wields swords, then matchlocks, and later Lee Enfield Rifles.

 

[gdr_willter]

So Official name is also Chengde Summer Resort?

You can literally translate it "Mountain Resort(山庄) for eascaping hot summer(避暑)"

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

No, the Summer Palace was what the Europeans called Yuanming Yuan. Chengde Mountain Resort was literally called "Summer Mountain Resort" 避暑山莊 in Chinese.

I just took a quick look into this and from wikipedia, I think the place people often refer to as Summer Palace and the famously destroyed Yuanming Yuan seem to be 2 different gardens.

Old Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you have any insights for us in this?

 

[gdr_willter]

I just took a quick look into this and from wikipedia, I think the place people often refer to as Summer Palace and the famously destroyed Yuanming Yuan seem to be 2 different gardens.

Old Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you have any insights for us in this?

Actually, the "Summer Palace" does not mean an unique exact site. It is the common concept of China under the rule of northern people. The foreign emperors wanted to maintain their influence toward both of mainland China and their nothern homeland (or they just really can't accept the hotter summer of southern land), so they switched their palace following the seasons.

But ironically, the well known Summer Palace of Qing (颐和园) is not the typical Summer Palace, it is the famous imperial amusement park. They don't even call it Summer Palace, it was named after the old symbol Yi(颐).