New Israeli law will force Palestinians to pay for the destruction of their own homes

[civ_king]

Seriously? "The government's pissing us off, let's kill some of their civilians! That'll show them!". How does that sound remotely ethical, moral, or justified in any way? It would be one thing if they were targeting military buildings and bases, but to attack civilians to get one's point across is impossible to defend.

The government has stolen their land and cages them in like animals in ever smaller places while cutting off necessities, the Israeli people have been instrumental in that

 

[NiRv4n4]

So do you support that mass rape and murder committed by the Russians in eastern Europe following the German retreat in WWII? Did the Germans have it coming to them, for supporting the Nazis and living in Slavic-majority lands? No matter how complicit the civilians may be, killing them in revenge is never justified. To suggest otherwise is, honestly, insane. Bash the Israeli government all you want, but to suggest that the Israeli people have no right to exist/or have forfeited that right through crimes against Palestine is disturbing to me.

 

[Skwink]

I don't think that's what civ_king is saying.

 

[NiRv4n4]

He's saying that if some of the population/the government perpetrated crimes at a certain scale, they are deserving of retribution by the oppressed. Which makes no sense, and me being a "humanitarian" of sorts, seems wrong. And plenty of these Hamas/Fatah attacks end up killing children, and to say they are deserving of this "retribution" is equally nonsensical.

 

[Skwink]

He's saying that if some of the population/the government perpetrated crimes at a certain scale, they are deserving of retribution by the oppressed. Which makes no sense, and me being a "humanitarian" of sorts, seems wrong. And plenty of these Hamas/Fatah attacks end up killing children, and to say they are deserving of this "retribution" is equally nonsensical.

So how do you feel about the American Revolution? Those American Terrorist just went around killing British men.

 

[NiRv4n4]

So how do you feel about the American Revolution? Those American Terrorist just went around killing British men.

British soldiers. Like I said, in their struggle for independence, it is one thing for the terrorists to target military bases, that deal. But to target normal people, civilians who happened to be born in a, by various definitions, "invasive' state, is wrong. The American revolutionaries attacking the loyalists was wrong, and I don't approve of that aspect of the Revolution. Of course, many of these loyalists ended up enlisting with the Crown, or propping up the British cause with money, slaves, etc.

However, no matter how badly Palestinians want independence, alienating the international community through extremism, Islamic fundamentalism, and/or terrorist attacks isn't the way to go. With the involved-ness of the world in the affairs of regions/countries at a higher degree than ever, image, respect, and support from nations around the world is more important than ever. That's why outside of a few countries, neither Israel or Palestine are winning the audience.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

And why must the palestinian people be subject to punishment based on their militants?

 

[NiRv4n4]

And why must the palestinian people be subject to punishment based on their militants?

You make a good point, and they shouldn't. Honestly, the Israel-Palestine situation is what a soldier might call a "charlie-foxtrot". There is no solution that isn't going to anger half the world, or damage one of the involved parties. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is not justifiable, just as what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis is unjustifiable. The best thing the world can hope for is that some relatively progressive, forward thinkers become in charge, who can put away the past and just work for the future generations. If peace was achieved 30 years ago, all of this child poverty and needless death wouldn't be happening. The leaders in Israel and Palestine need to think about the future, and not the past. That's why antagonistic actions like firing rockets into civilian zones, religious extremism, refusal to recognize Israel, demanding certain borders while being unwilling to compromise, and making people pay for the demolitions of their houses, are not helping, at all.

On a side note, I'm surprised no one has made the connection between this topic and some anecdote about making a person's family pay for the bullets their relatives were executed with. Morbidly ironic, and somewhat relevant.

 

[civ_king]

So do you support that mass rape and murder committed by the Russians in eastern Europe following the German retreat in WWII? Did the Germans have it coming to them, for supporting the Nazis and living in Slavic-majority lands? No matter how complicit the civilians may be, killing them in revenge is never justified. To suggest otherwise is, honestly, insane. Bash the Israeli government all you want, but to suggest that the Israeli people have no right to exist/or have forfeited that right through crimes against Palestine is disturbing to me.

He's saying that if some of the population/the government perpetrated crimes at a certain scale, they are deserving of retribution by the oppressed. Which makes no sense, and me being a "humanitarian" of sorts, seems wrong. And plenty of these Hamas/Fatah attacks end up killing children, and to say they are deserving of this "retribution" is equally nonsensical.

lolwut?!?!?!?!?


Am I that bad at writing that people think this is what I mean?

 

[NiRv4n4]

Maybe I'm reading too far in or putting words in your mouth, in which case, sorry. But, by saying the Palestinian terrorism is "almost justified", my temper went a little over.

 

[bathsheba666]

Maybe I'm reading too far in or putting words in your mouth, in which case, sorry. But, by saying the Palestinian terrorism is "almost justified", my temper went a little over.

Given that the Palestinian actions are generally minimal compared with what the Israelis are doing, and witness this example, I'm astonished your temper isn't permanently engaged - unless it's a one way only temper, of course.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

And in half a page (even less) the OP has been buried by the usual back and forth.

The topic is this: A Committee of the Israeli Knesset (Parliament) passed a first draft of a law that will require that Palestinians whose homes are destroyed by Israeli forces pay the Israeli government for the demolition costs.

And how that is justified in any way.

 

[Tani Coyote]

I don't think anybody can really argue in favor of something so blatantly unfair, so it only made sense for the discussion to shift to something vaguely related: which side is the good guy and which is the bad.

I'm not going to pay the arsonist for burning down my house.

 

[Lone Wolf]

lolwut?!?!?!?!?

Am I that bad at writing that people think this is what I mean?

Come on, be a man, stand by your words. You've said that Palestinian terrorism is almost justified, don't run away from it.

And how that is justified in any way.

What Tanicius said. Though I expect the usual suspects to come in and justify it. Stay tuned in for another instalment of Crypto-Antisemites vs. Slavish Neocons!

 

[wolfigor]

I don't think anybody can really argue in favor of something so blatantly unfair, so it only made sense for the discussion to shift to something vaguely related: which side is the good guy and which is the bad.

I'm not going to pay the arsonist for burning down my house.

Unfair is not asking to pay for the demolition of illegally built houses.
The real unfairness is that those houses are deemed to be illegally built.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Unfair is not asking to pay for the demolition of illegally built houses.
The real unfairness is that those houses are deemed to be illegally built.

I had just seen that in the OP; the fact these houses were illegal makes the situation a bit different.

That said, it says homes are banned in the occupied territories. Now, if Israel wanted to demolish houses in Israel's territory, I'd understand the forced payment. But the occupied territories are the Palestinians', aren't they?

But who are we kidding. This is just like the Native Americans - the land is yours until the dominant power wants more. Then your previous rights are cast aside.

 

[civ_king]

Maybe I'm reading too far in or putting words in your mouth, in which case, sorry. But, by saying the Palestinian terrorism is "almost justified", my temper went a little over.

Come on, be a man, stand by your words. You've said that Palestinian terrorism is almost justified, don't run away from it.


What Tanicius said. Though I expect the usual suspects to come in and justify it. Stay tuned in for another instalment of Crypto-Antisemites vs. Slavish Neocons!

The situation isn't Germans v. Russians, in that case neither side was a massive overmatch. The more comparable situation in WWII is actually the Jews having their land taken a they were put into ghettos, much like the Palestinians, they (both) were then starved of resources and brutally attacked. Both used terrorism to fight back. When you are being attacked by an enemy dozens of times more powerful you're only resort for fighting back is guerilla warfare.

Stealing people's land, caging them in like animals and then slowly starving them does not make them friends. In many parts of the western world if someone invades your home you have the right to shoot them, what about the Palestinians, don't they have a right to fight back? How many thousands of Palestinians must die, be gruesomely injured or have their homes destroyed for it to be a enough?

 

[NiRv4n4]

Really? In a world with a highly developed, if somewhat inept, international body like the UN, their only solution is to fling rockets at each other? Liberal democracies in the Western World have demonstrated their desire to achieve peace, but it's kind of hard to talk about peace when civilians are being killed left and right. The best thing for Hamas to do would move towards moderation in Islam, and embrace non-violence. Where's Gandhi when you need him?

A country doesn't have to do all of the work for independence itself anymore, it can have the United Nations come behind it. How do you think Israel was formed? Of course, the moment after being established, the Arab world descended on it like a pack of wild dogs. So violence and xenophobia have been ingrained in Israelis/Palestinians since the get-go, how does one get rid of that? Getting moderate forward thinkers in charge. People who can say that despite grievances in the past, grudges would not be held, blame not tossed around.

 

[civver_764]

Terrorism is never justified but we really need to get our priorities straight. Palestinian terrorism is not the problem, has never been the problem, and only continues to exist because of the aggressive US-Israeli terrorism against millions of people in that region.

 

[Ajidica]

Really? In a world with a highly developed, if somewhat inept, international body like the UN, their only solution is to fling rockets at each other?

Currently, Palestine has neither meaningful international recognition or UN representation (I think they have observers though). The situation may change come October when the UN votes on Palestinian autonomy.

Liberal democracies in the Western World have demonstrated their desire to achieve peace, but it's kind of hard to talk about peace when civilians are being killed left and right.

I suppose that only matters when Israeli citizens are killed? I haven't heard any major outcry over Israeli border guards firing tear gas and live rounds at protesters or similar incedents.

The best thing for Hamas to do would move towards moderation in Islam, and embrace non-violence. Where's Gandhi when you need him?

The situation in India was very different from Palestine. The British may have been not exactly nice toward the Indians, but they were hardly destroying their homes and forcing them into ghettos while subjecting them to a blockade that is too loosely defined to achieve its goals, of punishing Hamas, while being so strict as to constitute an attack on the civillian population.

Of course, the moment after being established, the Arab world descended on it like a pack of wild dogs.

The leaders do not a country make. The leaders of the surrounding Arab nations saw Israel as a chance to get their people to ignore the crippling corruption back home. Additionaly, they also saw it as Britain breaking their promise to them. Ever since the Arab Revolt with Lawrence of Arabia, the Brits had promised Palestine to the Arabs. When, at the end of WWII the Brits gave it to the UN to decide rather then giving to the Arabs (which they had been told they would recieve) they felt betrayed.

So violence and xenophobia have been ingrained in Israelis/Palestinians since the get-go, how does one get rid of that?

Violence and xenophobia hasn't been ingrained in the Israelis and Palestinians. If the Israelis had used a modicum of common sense after their victory in the Israeli War for Independance, they would not have this massive refugee/ghetto crisis on their hands.

Getting moderate forward thinkers in charge. People who can say that despite grievances in the past, grudges would not be held, blame not tossed around.

The problem is that Israel doesn't appear to be heading in that direction.