New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[das]

The philosophy I find agreeable, though there might be some problems with succession and such things. I still do not agree with the character limits; if you will, I find it a somewhat crude and at the same time imprecise solution (though certainly an innovative one). I am not convinced that leadership quality should have any effect on the amount of detail that is possible for include (the scale on which a government of a sufficiently major country should work is more or less universal), and if we put that aside the best solution to the objective of putting the player in the position of a ruler might be a stricter form of Birdjaguar's order standards.

 

[Luckymoose]

These are the rules as I made them today. They seem to work but I would like somebody to find problems in them. I will not be modding this NES, I hope someone else will take it up.

Spoiler GameNES Rules 2.0 :

GameNES Ruleset Version 2.0



Company Name: The name of your studio/company.

Leader: The head of the company, either lead designer or just plan old bossman.

Headquarters Location: The city of origin, or city of the current headquarters. This will be important as some locations, Japan or Europe for instance, will have a larger fan base in their home country at the start and may have a hard time breaking into the other markets.

Spending Points: Stealing from DaftNES here. The spending point system will be very similar and will get rid of the number crunching before with actual dollars. The idea is everyone starts with 1 spending point, but can gain a maximum of 3 in one turn. You can gain 1 from a good story and 1 from good sales in the update. These points are valuable. Say you wanted to make a new game, once the mod decides the number of spending points required to complete it, it would take you that amount to finish it. The catch being that if you do not write stories you may fall behind. As constant spending on game development can make your employees lose morale and you may even lose key developers. The further explain here are the options you have to spend your points on.

Spoiler Point Options :

Game/Console Development: Continues the game development and when you spent the required amount you may release the game.

Advertising: This can and most of the time will help your game do better once released and also gives your games hype. This also allows you to release games in other markets, only one extra market per point. Your company keeps those markets forever,

Employee: This is a dual purpose spending option. Not only can it help increase the skills of your employees but it can also keep them happy. Happy employees work more efficiently and can make development time shorter for the same quality.

Fan Service: This is your attempt at gaining more fans. It includes everything legal that you can do to gain fans outside of advertising.

Research: Important for expanding into better graphics engines, consoles and better programming languages. This covers all things to do with R&D and advancing your studio into the next generation.

Production: When you complete a game you must pay to have it produced in large enough numbers to meet, hopefully, the demand of the gamer nation. If you fail to supply enough your sales can take a hit until you produce more.

Buying Exclusivity: This is a point only the console owners may use it when spent gives the company who you are buying from an extra point while giving your console the exclusive rights to the game in question.

Employees: They work for you and require attention or they may leave you for a better company.

Skill: This is the backbone of your work. No good game was ever released by someone who had no idea what they were doing. Skill for new employees is usually low but sometimes you may gain more experienced individuals. Skill may take a hit when advancing to a new platform as your developers need to learn the architecture to make the most efficient games. Skill comes in a few levels shown below.

Newbie-Inexperienced-Mediocre-Decent-Good-Experienced-Pwnage

As you may have guessed skill is a factor in your games quality. It can only be raised by spending on Employees and it does not always succeed.

Morale: Your employees morale has a lot to do with how you are treating them but can also be affected by poor sales or company buyouts. Morale is important as high morale = happiness and happiness = better quality work. Morale can be affected by new leaders, new projects, poor sales, poor reviews and so on. But the better side of those things can increase morale. Morale is also done in levels.

Depressing-Sad-Unhappy-Normal-Happy-Ecstatic-Euphoric


Fan Base: These are your fans, they buy your games and consoles. You are nothing without them but they can always move on. You are wholly dependent on the fans, never forget this. Fans have two descriptions, Support and Size. Which are broken down into levels.

Support: The amount of support and the type of following they have to your studio.

Disliking-Neutral-Liking-Respecting-Loving-Fanboyism

Size: This is the size or a word describing the size of the fan base.

Hardcore-Small-Average-Growing-Large-Cult of Personality


Current Projects: Unlike the first game the game stats will not be kept with the company stats, but separately. You can only have 2 projects at one time, a project can be a game or a console, which includes handhelds. They will be listed as follows

Project Name (2/4) or something similar. The name with the time remaining. If someone is curious of what the project is they can come look for it in the announced game post. Players can keep projects secret and come out and shock the gaming world if they wish.

Generations: This is the technology. Generations will be defined by when consoles come out and the technology in them. Depending when the NES starts it could be anywhere from 8-bit to modern. They will be defined on the console stats.

Markets: You have to pay to sell games in markets outside of your home country. These markets include: Asia, North America, Europe, Oceanic, South America and so on. Breaking into new markets is included in the Advertising spending point.

Consoles: In order to make a console you must invest in research and then game/console development. It takes a long time and can either be a huge success or a failure. As of the beginning of the game there are only 2 consoles allowed. The first two players to claim these companies get boosted stats. Giving you 2 points default and some other stat changes.


Stat Templates:

Company Name:
Leader:
Headquarters Location:
Spending Points: 1 (2 default for first two console companies)
Employee Skill: Inexperienced
Employee Morale: Happy
Fan Base: Support/Size
Markets: Default being your home market.
Current Projects:

Product Stats:

Game Name:
Game Type:
Consoles:
Brief Description:

Console Name:
Generation:
Features:
Brief Description:

 

[North King]

It's really interesting how two people can arrive at nearly the same thoughts quite independently. Symphony, I've been thinking pretty much the same thing about the role of the players as heads of government. I also think opposition parties in a democracy should be playable as well.

However, I really can't accept the FPCL system. I simply do not like putting a character limit on players, beyond my own two PM rule (which is mostly so that I have room in my inbox for several updates' worth of orders). It's personal preference, though, so whatev.

 

[Frozen In Ice]

These are the rules as I made them today. They seem to work but I would like somebody to find problems in them. I will not be modding this NES, I hope someone else will take it up.

Spoiler GameNES Rules 2.0 :

GameNES Ruleset Version 2.0



Company Name: The name of your studio/company.

Leader: The head of the company, either lead designer or just plan old bossman.

Headquarters Location: The city of origin, or city of the current headquarters. This will be important as some locations, Japan or Europe for instance, will have a larger fan base in their home country at the start and may have a hard time breaking into the other markets.

Spending Points: Stealing from DaftNES here. The spending point system will be very similar and will get rid of the number crunching before with actual dollars. The idea is everyone starts with 1 spending point, but can gain a maximum of 3 in one turn. You can gain 1 from a good story and 1 from good sales in the update. These points are valuable. Say you wanted to make a new game, once the mod decides the number of spending points required to complete it, it would take you that amount to finish it. The catch being that if you do not write stories you may fall behind. As constant spending on game development can make your employees lose morale and you may even lose key developers. The further explain here are the options you have to spend your points on.

Spoiler Point Options :

Game/Console Development: Continues the game development and when you spent the required amount you may release the game.

Advertising: This can and most of the time will help your game do better once released and also gives your games hype. This also allows you to release games in other markets, only one extra market per point. Your company keeps those markets forever,

Employee: This is a dual purpose spending option. Not only can it help increase the skills of your employees but it can also keep them happy. Happy employees work more efficiently and can make development time shorter for the same quality.

Fan Service: This is your attempt at gaining more fans. It includes everything legal that you can do to gain fans outside of advertising.

Research: Important for expanding into better graphics engines, consoles and better programming languages. This covers all things to do with R&D and advancing your studio into the next generation.

Production: When you complete a game you must pay to have it produced in large enough numbers to meet, hopefully, the demand of the gamer nation. If you fail to supply enough your sales can take a hit until you produce more.

Buying Exclusivity: This is a point only the console owners may use it when spent gives the company who you are buying from an extra point while giving your console the exclusive rights to the game in question.

Employees: They work for you and require attention or they may leave you for a better company.

Skill: This is the backbone of your work. No good game was ever released by someone who had no idea what they were doing. Skill for new employees is usually low but sometimes you may gain more experienced individuals. Skill may take a hit when advancing to a new platform as your developers need to learn the architecture to make the most efficient games. Skill comes in a few levels shown below.

Newbie-Inexperienced-Mediocre-Decent-Good-Experienced-Pwnage

As you may have guessed skill is a factor in your games quality. It can only be raised by spending on Employees and it does not always succeed.

Morale: Your employees morale has a lot to do with how you are treating them but can also be affected by poor sales or company buyouts. Morale is important as high morale = happiness and happiness = better quality work. Morale can be affected by new leaders, new projects, poor sales, poor reviews and so on. But the better side of those things can increase morale. Morale is also done in levels.

Depressing-Sad-Unhappy-Normal-Happy-Ecstatic-Euphoric


Fan Base: These are your fans, they buy your games and consoles. You are nothing without them but they can always move on. You are wholly dependent on the fans, never forget this. Fans have two descriptions, Support and Size. Which are broken down into levels.

Support: The amount of support and the type of following they have to your studio.

Disliking-Neutral-Liking-Respecting-Loving-Fanboyism

Size: This is the size or a word describing the size of the fan base.

Hardcore-Small-Average-Growing-Large-Cult of Personality


Current Projects: Unlike the first game the game stats will not be kept with the company stats, but separately. You can only have 2 projects at one time, a project can be a game or a console, which includes handhelds. They will be listed as follows

Project Name (2/4) or something similar. The name with the time remaining. If someone is curious of what the project is they can come look for it in the announced game post. Players can keep projects secret and come out and shock the gaming world if they wish.

Generations: This is the technology. Generations will be defined by when consoles come out and the technology in them. Depending when the NES starts it could be anywhere from 8-bit to modern. They will be defined on the console stats.

Markets: You have to pay to sell games in markets outside of your home country. These markets include: Asia, North America, Europe, Oceanic, South America and so on. Breaking into new markets is included in the Advertising spending point.

Consoles: In order to make a console you must invest in research and then game/console development. It takes a long time and can either be a huge success or a failure. As of the beginning of the game there are only 2 consoles allowed. The first two players to claim these companies get boosted stats. Giving you 2 points default and some other stat changes.


Stat Templates:

Company Name:
Leader:
Headquarters Location:
Spending Points: 1 (2 default for first two console companies)
Employee Skill: Inexperienced
Employee Morale: Happy
Fan Base: Support/Size
Markets: Default being your home market.
Current Projects:

Product Stats:

Game Name:
Game Type:
Consoles:
Brief Description:

Console Name:
Generation:
Features:
Brief Description:

I definitely agree that the switch from dollars to points was a good idea. Points are just much simpler. I'll take a deeper look a the new rules when I get the chance.

 

[Luckymoose]

I definitely agree that the switch from dollars to points was a good idea. Points are just much simpler. I'll take a deeper look a the new rules when I get the chance.

I hope you do this. Like I said I will help you if you have problems deciding things. I would also like it to start in the mid 80's so we can have a good old 8 bit era first.

 

[Symphony D.]

The philosophy I find agreeable, though there might be some problems with succession and such things.

Not really. The player continues to operate the nation, generally (I suppose, if you had sufficient players to not only fill most or all nations, but to man political parties as well, that some sort of competition for succession could be introduced, but we have nowhere near enough people). It's just that when a new leader comes up, unless it's some sort of dynastic agreement, the player's more or less obligated to produce a story as to how it happens, because it is outside the scope of his IC position.

I still do not agree with the character limits; if you will, I find it a somewhat crude and at the same time imprecise solution (though certainly an innovative one).

It's generally said solutions should be simple and elegant--when elegance isn't possible, simplicity works.

I am not convinced that leadership quality should have any effect on the amount of detail that is possible for include (the scale on which a government of a sufficiently major country should work is more or less universal), and if we put that aside the best solution to the objective of putting the player in the position of a ruler might be a stricter form of Birdjaguar's order standards.

I'd say it's more sensible than just having an arbitrary limit floating about. The relationship is weak, but it can be argued, and there certainly is nothing detrimental about the idea, especially if combined with the orders idea idea. Higher order standards are a positive, yes, but that's vastly more difficult to enforce and requires more willingness to comply on the other end. A negative limitation (do not exceed W) is much easier to implement and maintain than a positive one (do X, Y, and Z).

It's really interesting how two people can arrive at nearly the same thoughts quite independently.

I've been noticing that a lot lately too. Perhaps we have a developing stand alone complex.

However, I really can't accept the FPCL system. [...] It's personal preference, though, so whatev.

Fair enough.

 

[Disenfrancised]

All of these choices only become meaningful if the player is removed from absolute power and is forced to deal with other internal entities, even if those entities are mechanical (numeric), moderator (intuitive), or even player (story) driven.

Yeah I've been thinking on this too, and think a useful system would be explicitly stating the political whims of the nation in a stats block. To make things quick if something can’t be explained in one line then we can simplify it . This might also be something only the player should have full access to (though other players spies and diplomats could of course find out about it)

Example - obviously in the output it'd be nicer formatted than this raw markup...

[I]<[B]Politics[/B]>
    <[B]Description[/B]>The politics of faux-germany are complex indeed...<[B]Description[/B]>
    <[B]Taxon[/B] type=Desire Size=Large influence=Strong>Middle class expansionist drive for new farmland</[B]Taxon[/B]>
    <[B]Taxon[/B] type=Interest influence=Weak reliant=No>Industrialists want higher tariff barriers</[B]Taxon[/B]>
    <[B]Taxon[/B] type=Nomenklatura influence=Medium reliant=No>The Duke of Bavaria wants more autonomy</[B]Taxon[/B]>
</[B]Politics[/B]>[/I]

As I see it there would be four general types of political Taxa, and flouting them will have different consequences.

Desire is a general wish or urge of the people, most of these are so obvious to go unstated (as in "we dislike being shot") though any nation specific ones should be explicit. Ignoring or going against them will result in dissent, reduced economic growth, reduced army morale, and political punishments if in a representative government. Going with them can produce quite the opposite.

Mandates occur only in representative governments or revolutionary movements, and represent what the segments of the electorates who voted for you wanted you to do. This is possibly the most player interactive political taxa, as stories and actions can build up and remove mandates with ease. Ignoring them will result in political punishments, or coups if in a revolutionary movement. Fulfilling your mandates doesn’t really have much extra bonuses though .

The next two taxa would not have a ‘size’ attribute which indicated how much of the population shares this view, but now has the reliant attribute, which clearly indicates if you needed this group to gain power (though now you have it…). Groups you are reliant on are less likely to stage coups and revolts, but

Interests are the powerful but small groups we all know and love, such as businessmen and the nobility. Flouting them can result in economic damage, them taking the parts of the military that support them and going home, them supporting your enemies both political and internal, revolts, and coups. Going with them would obviously give advantages based on what they are - cash from businessmen, private armies from nobles.

The Nomenklatura are those individuals/parties powerful and dynamic enough to be political forces in their own right, such as the Republicans and Democrats (one of which would be supporting the player, the other not) in the American system, or lesser kings and viceroys within an empire. Naturally they have their own agendas, and defying them can result in all sorts of damage. They are also the best place for other Players looking to take over/succeed from a nation.

 

[Abaddon]

Beware, below is a brainfart from Abaddon. Some of it is ramble, some of it is idle thought.. but herein there might just be a few specks of gold. If anything they are ideas needing answers rather than the answers themselves.


To the discussion of what is a player, what is a nation? Or more the case a NPC nation.

For any given period, most NES run the idea that stats are static unless EP is spent upon improving them.

Others add in calculuations of the magnitude of effect.. population/size/corruption etc all being involved there.

Finally some NES have stats decaying with time unless invested in.


So what is a nation doing without one of us a leader? A good Mod will spend that EP, the nation will grow/advance etc.. many will let it langish.. but I am sure we accept that as negative.


First and formost in a nation is the EP it has to spend.

1.Is this the excess money after all "stats" have been stablilzed?
2.Is this the national coffers, lock stock and barrel?
3.Is this the national coffers, with stong restrictions on where it should be spent?

1 is the simplest. We can assume everything within the nation is hunkydory, and this EP is simply pocket money for the wims of the leader.. be it improving his nations education, of training soldiers up to war.
2 is hard, if you don't spend the money wisely the nation will fall backwards, If you do not allocate money into something it will begin to fade.
3 is an alternative.. economys divided in where the money can be spent. I see this as a horrible bodge job creating more problems than it solves.. Agricultural EP can only be spent on troops, industrial EP on tecnological advances etc. This artificial division of economy is an artefact of the need to ensure all the national coffers money is not spent on lone projects as the rest of the nation withers.


Solutions?

Well, for one I am an advocate of EP's having less value, a nation having more of them allowing for a greater spread of spending.

I also think that multimany hidden links in the stats makes sense. Should not spending in improving a nations infrastructure mean its therefore easier to go on to improve agricultural output, compared to a nation with poorer infra?


So thats all fine an dandy if your good with excel, but what is to stop a nation running away with the game?

Firstly multipliers on size and pop, these are but the basics.
Secondly a corruption/wastage stat.

I think this should be a hidden stat, a calculation linked into everything else. As a nation grows, if money is not invested wisely, the corruption/wastage level will increase. With time 1EP will only train you 800 men rather than 1000 for example.

So a nation can still grow large, but it will become a bloated grotesc beast in all but the most skilled and planned growth.. ripe for attack by other nations, or self destruction from within.

See it as a hidden trigger. One growing and growing, that if suppased launches the nation into a civil war, or someother event pertaining to control.


umm, yeah ~ I think I have mumbled long enough for now. Cheers

 

[Dachs]

Incidentally, Dachs, you are quite welcome to join the discussion as well.

I would, but I am too sick to think right now. (Also, too sick to concentrate on C.) Perhaps later, when I can actually comprehend what you're saying.

 

[carmen510]

Is it possible that if a political party changes, the player gets kicked out of office? It would be interesting, but messy and probably piss off some players.

 

[North King]

Is it possible that if a political party changes, the player gets kicked out of office? It would be interesting, but messy and probably piss off some players.

That is, in fact, exactly what I intend to do with my new set of government rules. That is, players control the leaders of political parties, not the nation in its entirety.

 

[Disenfrancised]

Is it possible that if a political party changes, the player gets kicked out of office? It would be interesting, but messy and probably piss off some players.

If I was running a NES I would have a 'lost election' punishment rather than a kickout completely - there would be one update where their orders would get ignored, and from then after they need to play as the victorious party. The player pool is too small to kick people out, and the kicked players knowledge of nation secrets would be a crippling weakness for whichever player replaces them (if one can even be found).

 

[Lord_Iggy]

If I was running a NES I would have a 'lost election' punishment rather than a kickout completely - there would be one update where their orders would get ignored, and from then after they need to play as the victorious party. The player pool is too small to kick people out, and the kicked players knowledge of nation secrets would be a crippling weakness for whichever player replaces them (if one can even be found).

Thus, players need to continue playing as political parties in their own nation.

 

[Symphony D.]

Thus, players need to continue playing as political parties in their own nation.

But there are too few players for there to generally be more than one player per country. We strain to fill 30 slots out of 200+ in a modern game. We can't afford four players all wanting to be American political parties.

Dis' idea is a pretty good one, and is in line with what I would suggest myself. The thing is it requires pretty much every player to be able to assume multiple personalities, but around here, that isn't much of a problem.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I can envision an alternate-world NES with a modern level of technological and sociological development but a smallish number of nations. This way, political parties could be a reality, and there would be few enough of them to let each player play one. Needless to say, I won't be modding such a thing, but I thought that the idea deserves mention.

 

[Symphony D.]

I can envision an alternate-world NES with a modern level of technological and sociological development but a smallish number of nations. This way, political parties could be a reality, and there would be few enough of them to let each player play one. Needless to say, I won't be modding such a thing, but I thought that the idea deserves mention.

Only, those tend to wind up as people going "HAY, I CAN JUS COLOR IN ADJACENT NATIONS TO MAEK SUPARSTATES!11 BAKSTORY? WUZAT???"

 

[das]

Not really. The player continues to operate the nation, generally (I suppose, if you had sufficient players to not only fill most or all nations, but to man political parties as well, that some sort of competition for succession could be introduced, but we have nowhere near enough people). It's just that when a new leader comes up, unless it's some sort of dynastic agreement, the player's more or less obligated to produce a story as to how it happens, because it is outside the scope of his IC position.

A question - what is to be done with oligarchic and, worse still, democratic type government systems in a relatively low temporal-resolution setting? Even if we do just five years, consuls or what have you still are going to change five times. There are some understandable problems when reconciling that with the idea of player-as-ruler, though I suppose that it is probably just a matter of scale. Still, going back to oligarchies, who is the player in a country governed solely by a council of <10 people (dyarchies seem relatively more widespread here (think Sparta as opposed to the Franks - the latter are covered well enough by the province system), but I'm sure there are some rare examples in between as well)?

 

[Symphony D.]

in a relatively low temporal-resolution setting?

... "but the ultimate victory will depend upon the hearts and the minds of the people who actually live out there."

Even if we do just five years, consuls or what have you still are going to change five times.

That's a pretty rapid turnover.

There are some understandable problems when reconciling that with the idea of player-as-ruler, though I suppose that it is probably just a matter of scale. Still, going back to oligarchies, who is the player in a country governed solely by a council of <10 people (dyarchies seem relatively more widespread here (think Sparta as opposed to the Franks - the latter are covered well enough by the province system), but I'm sure there are some rare examples in between as well)?

I was very specific in saying the player is head of government. If there should happen to be ten heads of government, so be it. Such instances are, as you noted, rare enough that despite being somewhat square pegs in a round hole, they can be accommodated.

If a player abuses it grossly, smiting ensues.

 

[Dachs]

If I was running a NES I would have a 'lost election' punishment rather than a kickout completely - there would be one update where their orders would get ignored, and from then after they need to play as the victorious party. The player pool is too small to kick people out, and the kicked players knowledge of nation secrets would be a crippling weakness for whichever player replaces them (if one can even be found).

That sounds sort of like what I tried to implement in DaNES, except in the two relevant countries (the UK and Russia), one simply continued making somewhat silly war decisions with virtually no look at foreign policy and the other literally gave the election to a secretly PC opponent. I'd say that, unlike Symphony's PoV, I don't regard most NESers as able to play from multiple perspectives with that rapid of a turnaround time. That might be colored by my own experiences, though.

EDIT: Rome ran on that rapid turnover for four hundred and fifty years.

 

[Symphony D.]

I'd say that, unlike Symphony's PoV, I don't regard most NESers as able to play from multiple perspectives with that rapid of a turnaround time.

I don't think they're able to either. The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can be made to do...

EDIT: Rome ran on that rapid turnover for four hundred and fifty years.

When was the last time you say a one to five year turn game during the Roman Empire, or one with leaders who were rotating that heavily?