New Version - April 30th (4/30)

[Blue Ghost]

Considering that AI bonuses become strongest during that period, and that the biggest swings in war/diplomacy can happen when ideologies emerge, forcing a cultural victory player to 'stick it out' until Telecom is like saying that a science victory player is forced to 'stick it out' until the end just because they have a 5 tech lead in the modern era. Your influence may dwindle somehow, and this forced window of time gives other players (especially diplo players) time to mess with the late-game resolutions and tenets to muck with your lead. It also lets the AI coalition-build a little more reliably. All in all, I think your impression of victory needs to adapt - you don't win until you see the splash and - until then - other players have a chance to bring you down or win on their own.

G

I'll give it a try, though I'm still skeptical. I'm not just speaking hypothetically though. This is a real problem that I've observed with diplomatic victory: You amass the required votes long before global hegemony is unlocked, and then the rest of the game is a grind. I would not want cultural victory to have the same issue.

 

[ridjack]

Is there a possibility of switching it so either a) the wonder is available once you're Influential across the board as opposed to being locked behind a tech or b) just requiring you to maintain Influential for x number of turns? And if it is possible, would that solve anything?

I'll give it a try, though I'm still skeptical. I'm not just speaking hypothetically though. This is a real problem that I've observed with diplomatic victory: You amass the required votes long before global hegemony is unlocked, and then the rest of the game is a grind. I would not want cultural victory to have the same issue.

CV isn't exempted from this even now. Dominant with 6/12 civs, Influential with 5, 90% and rising with the last Civ... 91... 92... Historic Event! 94... 95...

 

[Blue Ghost]

Is there a possibility of switching it so either a) the wonder is available once you're Influential across the board as opposed to being locked behind a tech or b) just requiring you to maintain Influential for x number of turns? And if it is possible, would that solve anything?

I'd be fine with it not being locked behind a tech.

CV isn't exempted from this even now. Dominant with 6/12 civs, Influential with 5, 90% and rising with the last Civ... 91... 92... Historic Event! 94... 95...

The difference there is that you're still actively pursuing culture, pushing historic events to get the last bit of influence. Even if victory is inevitable, you're still taking an active role and getting closer to winning. That's not the case when you've already achieved your goal, the AI isn't doing anything to challenge you, and you're just waiting for the tech to unlock.

 

[bigcat88]

Before creating post on GitHub will ask here:
Can someone build a stable(horses are present and improved) with hotfix on this version?

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

Considering that AI bonuses become strongest during that period, and that the biggest swings in war/diplomacy can happen when ideologies emerge, forcing a cultural victory player to 'stick it out' until Telecom is like saying that a science victory player is forced to 'stick it out' until the end just because they have a 5 tech lead in the modern era. Your influence may dwindle somehow, and this forced window of time gives other players (especially diplo players) time to mess with the late-game resolutions and tenets to muck with your lead. It also lets the AI coalition-build a little more reliably. All in all, I think your impression of victory needs to adapt - you don't win until you see the splash and - until then - other players have a chance to bring you down or win on their own.

G

I totally agree it would be like in a baseball game and you are up by 6 runs going into the 9th inning you don't want to play because its boring.

 

[Moi Magnus]

Considering that AI bonuses become strongest during that period, and that the biggest swings in war/diplomacy can happen when ideologies emerge, forcing a cultural victory player to 'stick it out' until Telecom is like saying that a science victory player is forced to 'stick it out' until the end just because they have a 5 tech lead in the modern era. Your influence may dwindle somehow, and this forced window of time gives other players (especially diplo players) time to mess with the late-game resolutions and tenets to muck with your lead. It also lets the AI coalition-build a little more reliably. All in all, I think your impression of victory needs to adapt - you don't win until you see the splash and - until then - other players have a chance to bring you down or win on their own.

G

The restriction to a tech feel a little artificial to me. It would feel more appropriate to link it to tenets, so either:
1) Ask your tenet tree to be full
2) Ask you to have 3 level 3 tenets
3) Add a new tenet 3 to each ideology that allows to build the wonder "win by cultural victory"
4) In the unlickely case it is possible to have level 4 tenets, that could also be a level 4 tenet.

Anyway, I will also post this in the appropriate thread.

 

[ishmael_]

That's not the case when you've already achieved your goal, the AI isn't doing anything to challenge you, and you're just waiting for the tech to unlock.

Is this something you see often? With the last several patches, the AI definately has challenged me. Maybe it's just some AI that care for city states and votes? And if you don't have any in the game, you don't feel like you are getting challenged?

 

[ryanmusante]

Is this something you see often? With the last several patches, the AI definately has challenged me. Maybe it's just some AI that care for city states and votes? And if you don't have any in the game, you don't feel like you are getting challenged?

I used to have that perspective until I moved up to emperor and than I saw an entirely new challenge. If you let your guard down, you'll find yourself slipping faster the more the game progresses. Victory doesn't come easy, at least in my opinion. I don't stop early anymore. I finish to a loss or to a win since this isn't vanilla and the game isn't done until it's done.

 

[saamohod]

Hey, it's already 4-30-4 version! Any chance to find out what was changed since 4-30?

 

[pza]

Hey, it's already 4-20-4 version! Any chance to find out what was changed since 4-20?

you mean between 4-20 and 4-30? just read the first post. It's basically all there.

 

[saamohod]

you mean between 4-20 and 4-30? just read the first post. It's basically all there.

My bad, my typo.
I've corrected my post.

 

[adac]

Hey, it's already 4-30-4 version! Any chance to find out what was changed since 4-30?

Seconded; is there somewhere other than this thread that has what has changed (maybe on Github)? I was playing on 4-30-1 last night; I assume from how VP version numbers usually work that it should be save-game compatible?

 

[Rean]

Looking at Github it seems to be text fixes and what I'm guessing is a fix for the stoneworks bug.

 

[adac]

Looking at Github it seems to be text fixes and what I'm guessing is a fix for the stoneworks bug.

Cheers!

 

[Mad Madigan]

I don't mind the tech requirement for a Cultural Victory so much as it helps bring that victory condition more into line with Diplomatic and Science and gives all of the catch-ups mechanics of the Modern/Atomic/Information Eras time to actually function. However, if the CV wonder did NOT have a tech requirement, then it definitely needs something more than just complete Influential status and an Ideology to unlock. I agree with Moi Magnus that if possible it would make more sense to have the CV wonder unlock once a certain number of Ideology tenants have been achieved. This delays the availability of the CV wonder without bottlenecking the victory via science output. Exactly how many tenants would be required would need some testing, but I think unlocking at least one Level 3 tenant should be the minimum.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't mind the tech requirement for a Cultural Victory so much as it helps bring that victory condition more into line with Diplomatic and Science and gives all of the catch-ups mechanics of the Modern/Atomic/Information Eras time to actually function. However, if the CV wonder did NOT have a tech requirement, then it definitely needs something more than just complete Influential status and an Ideology to unlock. I agree with Moi Magnus that if possible it would make more sense to have the CV wonder unlock once a certain number of Ideology tenants have been achieved. This delays the availability of the CV wonder without bottlenecking the victory via science output. Exactly how many tenants would be required would need some testing, but I think unlocking at least one Level 3 tenant should be the minimum.

I would be fine with a number of tenants, not s level requirement. Let’s not force a player to pick specific tiers of tenants to win the game. If they want to take every single level 1 tenant instead of going for level 3...we should absolutely let them

 

[Txurce]

As a point of interest, I've noticed that the AI goes after God of Commerce very aggressively now. This has been true for thre last couple of versions. Playing Carthage and rushing first monument and then shrine doesn't guarantee it.

In my last two games: the Aztecs still only had one city around t80, but did build an army and DoW'd. But Japan started started on an island, and disn't get to its second city until after t100.

My question: have city razings been accelerated? In my last two games, they disappear much faster than the traditional one-pop-at-a-time.

 

[saamohod]

My question: have city razings been accelerated? In my last two games, they disappear much faster than the traditional one-pop-at-a-time.

I second this. I captured a city of 4-5 population and set it to raze. The next turn it was gone.

 

[Mad Madigan]

@saamohod Did the city have 4-5 pop before you captured it or after? Because cities lose several pop once captured, so it's possible a 4-pop city could drop to 1-2 pop once captured and then disappear the next turn if immediately razed.

 

[tu_79]

I don't mind the tech requirement for a Cultural Victory so much as it helps bring that victory condition more into line with Diplomatic and Science and gives all of the catch-ups mechanics of the Modern/Atomic/Information Eras time to actually function. However, if the CV wonder did NOT have a tech requirement, then it definitely needs something more than just complete Influential status and an Ideology to unlock. I agree with Moi Magnus that if possible it would make more sense to have the CV wonder unlock once a certain number of Ideology tenants have been achieved. This delays the availability of the CV wonder without bottlenecking the victory via science output. Exactly how many tenants would be required would need some testing, but I think unlocking at least one Level 3 tenant should be the minimum.

I would be fine with a number of tenants, not s level requirement. Let’s not force a player to pick specific tiers of tenants to win the game. If they want to take every single level 1 tenant instead of going for level 3...we should absolutely let them

Ok, I'll reply here too. If you tie that wonder to tenets, we'll keep the issue of different technological speed among difficulties. You know, play on warlord and your tech will advance very very slowly, making cultural victory happening very very early in comparison. And if you play Poland, then you'll be the first one able to built it.

My best bet is linking a building that would unlock cultural victory (not immediatly winning) that is available for building once United Nations is founded, or a World Ideology has been enacted. Why? That's still enabling cultural victory to happen before diplomatic victory (it might not), but not much earlier. It does not require you to play diplomatically, since UN is likely to be founded by other civ going for diplomacy, and telecommunications is likely to be researched by someone going for science. But it signals a moment that's very close to when diplomatic victory happens, no matter how fast research went in this game.
So, a civ going for cultural could just wait until someone enacts it, then build the wonder and make sure everyone is still influenced, or it could help hurrying the tech and the resolution.