New Version - January 12th (1/12)

[Txurce]

I'm now in my second game. About 200 turns in, I notice that the 4 other civs I've met have 3, 2, and 1 DP's each. Again, insufficient sample, but this seems excessive.

 

[CrazyG]

I had a game earlier where I got a declaration of friendship with everyone, including the huns songhai and aztec. Aztec offered it while at war with 3 civs I was already friends with. Was there a greater need for defensive pacts? I honestly really don't like them they reduce war so much and a game without wars is really boring. Maybe making the AI more prone to declare war on a friend's enemy? They are always ready to denounce, but I don't think a denouncement does much to bother the huns.

I think the push for more defensive pacts and friendships was made pursing this ideal the AI will be smart enough to gang up on the runaway human. The thing is humans are rarely smart enough to do that. I've played a lot of free for all strategy games in my life, including civ and others, and its extremely rare for even very experienced players to make that happen (though its always discussed). If anything I would just beef up later game AI bonuses on high difficulties.

 

[Enginseer]

I had a game earlier where I got a declaration of friendship with everyone, including the huns songhai and aztec. Aztec offered it while at war with 3 civs I was already friends with. Was there a greater need for defensive pacts? I honestly really don't like them they reduce war so much and a game without wars is really boring. Maybe making the AI more prone to declare war on a friend's enemy? They are always ready to denounce, but I don't think a denouncement does much to bother the huns.

I think the push for more defensive pacts and friendships was made pursing this ideal the AI will be smart enough to gang up on the runaway human. The thing is humans are rarely smart enough to do that. I've played a lot of free for all strategy games in my life, including civ and others, and its extremely rare for even very experienced players to make that happen (though its always discussed). If anything I would just beef up later game AI bonuses on high difficulties.

• mrw I make a lot of friends feels good
• a friend denounced a friend
• this friend ask me to declare war on him
• "oh what the"
• I said i have no interest in this arrangement
• friend breaks up declaration of friendship with me and denounces me
• cycle of civ

 

[Gazebo]

If you want to mess with different values for AI proclivity towards DOFs/DPs/Denouncing, you can adjust this number. Higher = less friendship, Lower = more. It is in the CoreDefines.sql of the CP.

--Affects DOF, DP, and enemy calculations
UPDATE Defines
SET Value = '18'
WHERE Name = 'DOF_THRESHOLD';

 

[ashendashin]

I had a game earlier where I got a declaration of friendship with everyone, including the huns songhai and aztec. Aztec offered it while at war with 3 civs I was already friends with. Was there a greater need for defensive pacts? I honestly really don't like them they reduce war so much and a game without wars is really boring. Maybe making the AI more prone to declare war on a friend's enemy? They are always ready to denounce, but I don't think a denouncement does much to bother the huns.

I think the push for more defensive pacts and friendships was made pursing this ideal the AI will be smart enough to gang up on the runaway human. The thing is humans are rarely smart enough to do that. I've played a lot of free for all strategy games in my life, including civ and others, and its extremely rare for even very experienced players to make that happen (though its always discussed). If anything I would just beef up later game AI bonuses on high difficulties.

I've been seeing plenty of war. In fact, these DPs could make for some potentially epic scale warfare with 43 civs. Emphasis on "potentially" because civs on entirely seperate continents are constantly making DoWs on my current game... Fingers crossed the modern era makes these wars worth anything.

 

[ElliotS]

The tooltip for Arabia's trait proccing says +1 science, which is incorrect. Just an FYI. (At least "Another night, Another Tale.")

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Just checking to see if it's intended or a bug -> when I use my garrisoned melee unit to destroy a non-combat enemy unit (such as an emissary) adjacent to the city, my unit leaves the city. Whereas if I use it to destroy the enemy's combat unit, it doesn't. Because of this, sometimes it's a disadvantage to destroy the non-combat unit because it means leaving the city un-garrisoned. Anyone else have this problem or is it perhaps my faulty installation?

 

[Gazebo]

Just checking to see if it's intended or a bug -> when I use my garrisoned melee unit to destroy a non-combat enemy unit (such as an emissary) adjacent to the city, my unit leaves the city. Whereas if I use it to destroy the enemy's combat unit, it doesn't. Because of this, sometimes it's a disadvantage to destroy the non-combat unit because it means leaving the city un-garrisoned. Anyone else have this problem or is it perhaps my faulty installation?

That's intentional.

 

[DarkZero]

I have experienced a game breaking bug in my last game, however I am sure it only happens as Venice, your puppets don't build resource required buildings, even if you have resources to spare, unless you invest on them, the problem is that if you buy one of them while the puppet is doing a conversion action(production to gold,science, culture) the building not only does not get constructed, but it disappears from ever being able to be constructed, happened whit seaport, factory and train station, and does not happen if you invest while the city is building normal stuff.

 

[Txurce]

I had a game earlier where I got a declaration of friendship with everyone, including the huns songhai and aztec. Aztec offered it while at war with 3 civs I was already friends with. Was there a greater need for defensive pacts? I honestly really don't like them they reduce war so much and a game without wars is really boring. Maybe making the AI more prone to declare war on a friend's enemy? They are always ready to denounce, but I don't think a denouncement does much to bother the huns.

I think the push for more defensive pacts and friendships was made pursing this ideal the AI will be smart enough to gang up on the runaway human. The thing is humans are rarely smart enough to do that. I've played a lot of free for all strategy games in my life, including civ and others, and its extremely rare for even very experienced players to make that happen (though its always discussed). If anything I would just beef up later game AI bonuses on high difficulties.

The recent changes in these areas did seem to stem from a desire to slow runaways, human and AI. The difference between the two is immaterial, as the mechanics to slow either would be essentially the same. I've already mentioned that in my only complete game so far, this problem seemed to have been addressed quite well. But as you've noted, DPs and DoF's have nothing to do with it. And based on a two-game sampling, both seemed to be more common, with the explosion of DPs making the game less fun. As far as I could tell, the only problem with DPs pre-patch was that the human didn't get nearly the same opportunities as the AI. This still seems to be the case.

 

[ElliotS]

I have experienced a game breaking bug in my last game, however I am sure it only happens as Venice, your puppets don't build resource required buildings, even if you have resources to spare, unless you invest on them, the problem is that if you buy one of them while the puppet is doing a conversion action(production to gold,science, culture) the building not only does not get constructed, but it disappears from ever being able to be constructed, happened whit seaport, factory and train station, and does not happen if you invest while the city is building normal stuff.

Report on GitHub

 

[CrazyG]

The recent changes in these areas did seem to stem from a desire to slow runaways, human and AI. The difference between the two is immaterial, as the mechanics to slow either would be essentially the same. I've already mentioned that in my only complete game so far, this problem seemed to have been addressed quite well. But as you've noted, DPs and DoF's have nothing to do with it. And based on a two-game sampling, both seemed to be more common, with the explosion of DPs making the game less fun. As far as I could tell, the only problem with DPs pre-patch was that the human didn't get nearly the same opportunities as the AI. This still seems to be the case.

In theory the adjustments to military score calculations should help humans get DPs.

I agree that DPs don't have anything to do with stopping a runaway. If I'm truly a runaway civ, why do I need to war anybody? An offensive alliance is what they need, like a war of containment. But like I said, its asking a lot from the AI to pull this off, its pretty rare for humans to do it.

 

[IcyAngel]

In theory the adjustments to military score calculations should help humans get DPs.

I agree that DPs don't have anything to do with stopping a runaway. If I'm truly a runaway civ, why do I need to war anybody? An offensive alliance is what they need, like a war of containment. But like I said, its asking a lot from the AI to pull this off, its pretty rare for humans to do it.

A runaway need not necessarily be ahead in science and culture, just ahead enough in military score to crush any single civ. But if multiple civs team up...

 

[Txurce]

In theory the adjustments to military score calculations should help humans get DPs.

I agree that DPs don't have anything to do with stopping a runaway. If I'm truly a runaway civ, why do I need to war anybody? An offensive alliance is what they need, like a war of containment. But like I said, its asking a lot from the AI to pull this off, its pretty rare for humans to do it.

Yeah, that's why I was surprised in my first game to have a top military for once, and receive no offers (given how many DPs exist now).

Gazebo, I have the sense that you did something to slow runaways (at least human ones) by something other than DPs/DoFs. Is that right?

 

[Gazebo]

Yeah, that's why I was surprised in my first game to have a top military for once, and receive no offers (given how many DPs exist now).

Gazebo, I have the sense that you did something to slow runaways (at least human ones) by something other than DPs/DoFs. Is that right?

Not really - I did amplify the AI's sensitivity to someone winning (and also increased the parameters by which the AI judges said victory) slightly.

G

 

[Txurce]

Not really - I did amplify the AI's sensitivity to someone winning (and also increased the parameters by which the AI judges said victory) slightly.

G

That's what it felt like. I'm curious to see whether it continues to have an effect.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

That's intentional.

Thanks for the reply. What's the purpose behind this difference in mechanics, it's a bit odd that it's worse strategically for me to attack a defenseless unit than a combat unit...?

 

[Gazebo]

Thanks for the reply. What's the purpose behind this difference in mechanics, it's a bit odd that it's worse strategically for me to attack a defenseless unit than a combat unit...?

There's no combat per-se, you are just moving onto a tile and 'capturing' a unit. Otherwise you'd be teleporting the civilian to you, which is equally odd.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Thnx. But if I'm destroying the enemy's diplomatic unit (an emissary, for example), I'm not capturing the unit nor would there be any teleportation. I just destroy an enemy unit, as I would an enemy's spearman. But in one case, my unit leaves the city, and in the other it doesn't.

 

[Gazebo]

Thnx. But if I'm destroying the enemy's diplomatic unit (an emissary, for example), I'm not capturing the unit nor would there be any teleportation. I just destroy an enemy unit, as I would an enemy's spearman. But in one case, my unit leaves the city, and in the other it doesn't.

Again, though, its not 'combat.' It is civilian capture. Just so happens that the unit, upon capture, is killed. Rough world.

G