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New Version - June 2nd (6-2)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I would be surprised if a single free worker was snowballing into superior units AND infrastructure within the first 75 turns.

    Am I underestimating it?
     
  2. Legen

    Legen King

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    It's not just about how many cities to settle, but also where and when.

    At higher difficulties, settling in defensible positions is usually more importat than settling in rich spots, as that saves you a lot of production, gold and time that would be spent on military units (and their maintenance). The extra :c5strength: CS from settling on a hill is worth free production on a mini Wall, having a river between your city and invaders is worth another defensive building (unless facing Askia). Having enemies forced to attack with only 1 or 2 units per turn due to chokepoints and terrain features is akin to having alot of production on units every turn. Having ranged units unable to bombard your city due to hills and forest/jungle tiles is also akin to lots of production toward cavalry units constantly harassing their backline.

    Timing matters to both avoid being forward settled and to not be overwhelmed by the increased costs on culture and science. I usually settle 4 satellite cities ASAP for the former, then wait until I unlock key policies (e.g. Fraternity, Discipline) to resume expansion. Note that your extra cities don't need to be from settlers, you can also conquer city-states to expand your empire.

    In your screenshot, Te-moak is way too exposed. If it were on the forested hill two tiles to the right, Askia would have a huge difficulty assaulting it. He wouldn't be able to bombard it with 2-3 archers on the other side of the coast, and he would face a stronger city as well. At the very least, he'd have to wait until Spearmen and/or his UU to deal with your hilled city, and by then you may have built a Wall.
     
    Skidizzle likes this.
  3. Legen

    Legen King

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    You are. Workers cost 80 production after all. The AI can produce 2 warriors with that amount of production and time, keeping them safer from barbarians. Also, they are akin to having a second queue producing pseudo granaries/forges/councils/markets/shrines/monuments from nearby luxuries and features from turn 1, and doing so in mere 6-8 turns. This early on, most buildings may take 10-30 turns from the city's production, especially if it isn't the Capital, on standard speed.

    Bonus if the civ has an early UI (Brazil, Maya, Huns, Inca, Polynesia and Shoshone). Or if they get a very early pantheon that boosts a certain improvement, which the Celts (Rhiannon), India and Spain are able to.
     
  4. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    On turn 1 they are only building farms though. By the time the player gets their first worker (roughly turn 35-45) how many improvements can they realistically get out? 2-3 farms, 1-2 pastures/mines, 1-2 luxury maybe. Those are all great but they are long term bonuses. They don't have enough short term impact to explain superior units, cities and infrastructure within 75 turns
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Its just one part of the package. They get yields earlier + discounts on productions = an earlier snowball. It all adds up.
     
  6. Legen

    Legen King

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    If they got a farm triangle, it's an extra 6 food, which is huge for Tradition and Progress. And by the time a human would be training a worker, the AI is spending production on something else, like a settler, which is also sped up by the extra food being partially converted into production.
     
  7. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Yeah together they add up to a good economic start but not sure about the military. I will try my next emperor game without the free worker and see if that is much different
     
    Kim Dong Un and tu_79 like this.
  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Please do. I also find this sudden difficulty increase disturbing.
     
  9. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I haven't played King in ages, but I don't remember the difficulty increase being that substantial. Does it feel harder to go from King to Emperor than any of the other difficulty jumps?
     
  10. PapaRockett

    PapaRockett Prince

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    In my experience, yes. The difference is huge.
     
  11. Rosaria's Sandwiches

    Rosaria's Sandwiches Chieftain

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    Ah, I always take my neighbour's worker on Emperor ASAP; it makes quite a difference sometimes; less growth so less pop and production. If I take their worker and ideally pillage any already built improvements, they'll lose out on the ability to to grow and produce more effectively as well as be urged to build a worker.
     
  12. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    In before the AI is trained to escort their early Worker with a military unit :crazyeye:
     
  13. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I have no problem with aggressive AI (especially when I have no supply) "coming at me bruh", but regardless of the enemy civ and/or start location, there's no way they should have a 10 man army + 3 cities + possible infrastructure on turn 50...

    On deity, sure, but this is the third hardest difficulty we're talking about here. I like challenge, and I'm not trying to throw VP into easy mode, but it's just a bit much IMO. Emperor+ games probably all end up trudging along in the same manner as well; free worker snowball + crazy production bonuses means every AI civ will have buffed supply close to or at capacity for the entire game, always looking to fight unless you go out of your way to be the aggressor and take them out.

    Discounting a possible bought unit, if Askia averaged a unit every 4 turns (takes human approximately 10 turns for first archer) that puts him almost 40 turns in, then he has the production to spit out 3 settlers in those remaining 10 turns, when it takes the human almost 10 turns on average to produce your first 2-3 settlers? He's chosen at least 1 policy as well, so when did the early monument - which takes humans around another 10 turns to build unless invested - get thrown in? Gao even has an extra pop than my capital lol.

    I think I'm just going to have to make that edit in the settings in order to get the smarter AI (picking best choice / option every time) paired with the manageable bonuses the AI would receive on King difficulty. Can somebody lay it out for me again exactly how I go about this? Please and thanks.

    Who knows, maybe removing that initial worker from Emperor is enough to even the playing field a tad more.
     
  14. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Go to Community Balance Patch > Balance Changes > Difficulty > DifficultyMod.xml, find HANDICAP_EMPEROR and set <AIStartingWorkerUnits> from 1 to 0.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
    Tantro, Bromar1 and Kim Dong Un like this.
  15. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I'm aware that one of the biggest tips people underestimate when learning higher difficulties is city placement for purpose of defensive posture, but at the same time, Te-Moak's location gave me coastal access within a stones throw of his capital - for my own offensive advantage when he inevitably attacked. Shoshone land grab was also taken into account, allowing me to snatch that amber. I knew the attack was coming. I just didn't know it would be 50 turns in and with a 10 man army!

    I'd say I actually played it great (Agaidika beat his settler by 1 turn as well), and if the situations were reversed with a Poco AI pulling those moves on me, I'd be warring as well. I just wouldn't have a 10 man army to retaliate with by turn 50; if I did have a competent army, I certainly wouldn't also have had the production to plop 2 other cities down.

    I have no issue with Askia blitzing me and snatching Te-Moak 50 turns in. In fact, I applause and give kudos because VP is awesome. I do have issue with losing Te-Moak 50 turns in, while Askia has basically the same # of cities and / or infrastructure as me, when I did nothing but focus those two things...
     
  16. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    I haven't played Civ for a half year and before I was playing Emperor all the time with number of considerations set to 1 (like on Immortal and Diety) and it was fine. I didn't feel struggle or grind. Have difficulty of Emperor change that much since? What are the biggest changes?
     
  17. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    It's probably just me not having adequate starts because I carry over habits from King, like higher risk/reward settling, and neglecting military until I build a barracks. You can get away with it on King, but not Emperor apparently...
     
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  18. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    As there's some confusion about the difficulty differences between King and Emperor, I shall clear it up:

    Player differences:
    Happiness
    -1 global happiness from difficulty level
    -1 local happiness bonus "for being the capital"
    No 5% difficulty reduction to citizen unhappiness from needs

    Unit Supply
    -1 base unit supply
    5% less of the total population is added to unit supply

    Barbarians

    Barbs can cross your borders five turns earlier, on turn 15
    Barbs can target your (visible) trade routes from 1 tile further on land and 2 on the sea

    AI differences:
    Units
    All major AI civs start with a Worker
    Workers build and repair improvements 10% faster (AIWorkRateModifier of 50 rather than 40)
    City-States start with 2 Warriors instead of 1
    AI gets 16% more XP from combat

    Costs
    AI gets an extra 10% base Production cost discount on units, buildings and projects (80% of total cost in Ancient Era, as opposed to 90% on King)
    Unit and building Gold maintenance is 10% cheaper (80%, rather than 90% on King)
    Unit upgrade costs are reduced by an additional 5% of the base price
    AI Per Era Modifier is -8 rather than -7 on King. The per era modifier for Emperor means that each era, an additional -8% of the base Production cost for units, buildings, and projects is subtracted, on top of the base discount.

    Unit Supply
    +5% base unit supply and +1% more per era compared to King

    Yields
    The multiplier for the AI's periodic yield bonuses is x5 rather than x4, so they get 25% more yields. Note that founding a city gives them a Food and Production yield bonus to all of their cities.

    Other
    AIDeclareWarProb multiplier is 175 instead of 150 (this only affects enmity towards humans who are close to winning the game)
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
  19. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors King

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    Also, it's only on Immortal and Deity that the AI always picks the "best" option. On Emperor and King alike it's randomized between the top two.

    If you wish to change this, you need to change
    <CityProductionNumOptionsConsidered>
    <TechNumOptionsConsidered>
    <PolicyNumOptionsConsidered>

    ...from 2 to 1.
     
    JamesNinelives, vyyt, Bromar1 and 2 others like this.
  20. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    We've seen reports that the jump from Prince to King is hard, King to Emperor is hard, Emperor to Immortal is hard, ...
    To me it says the difficulty levels are well-designed. If the jump wasn't felt, then the two levels would be equivalent.

    I have also had some issues expanding as much as I would like going Progress on Immortal / Standard map / Standard speed. It's been really map-dependent - it happens rarely that I find myself with my own subcontinent.
     

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