New Version - October 28th (10/28)

[joosegoose25]

Yes, but catapults and trebuchets were used only for siege. I think it is fine to have the unit lines evolve and alter their roles slightly throughout the game:

Archers more effective against units, catapults slower and more effective against cities (and more expensive - does anyone really care about this???).

Then from canons onwards the siege units can become more effective against units (they cost iron)

I think you've got it. Catapults and Trebs are really the only issue here I think, so we could probably get away with changes just to those two.

 

[Funak]

Honestly, are people actually complaining about catapults being too powerful? Because I've never seen or heard that before. Yeah, trebuchets are fairly strong, that's for sure, they are weaker than the crossbow, but unlocks a bit earlier. I personally don't think they are game-breakingly powerful by any means however.

After that, you're at the cannon, which is definitely stronger than the archer-line alternative, but they cost resources, so that's fine, imho.


Also the fact that the trebuchet is slowed down in enemy lands kinda feels like drawback enough compared to compbows/crossbows.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the strength against cities more than makes up for the slower movement if I'm attacking though, and I'm usually not in enemy territory if I'm not attacking. When do I use archers? When I'm fighting in enemy territory, but I'm not attacking cites, but I want ranged units, but I don't want skirmishers? Even if all the above was true, I have to be moving those units a lot for the archers to be better than the siege, and even if the above is somehow true I think I'd rather be earning promotions for potential cannons than crossbows. I think the archer line is a little too situational at the moment

PS - Korea's Hwacha and cannons are hilariously strong now

 

[Aldebaran1997]

So strange...I picked Thrift and Ascenticism as my follower believes and my Constantinople got only 3 gold and food even though there are 6 followers in that city.
And I checked sql files and those believes didn't halve followers.

 

[Stef09]

In a game with 10/28 version including Tarcisio's Spain and various JFD mods, on turn 42 I see Barbarian Santisima Trinidads... not sure but first thought it might be related to CP?

 

[matlajs]

can anyone explain me reason, why certain units do not carry over their special abilities/atributtes after upgrade?

 

[thecraftybee]

They are unique units, not unique lines. I think all UUs should lose their unique promotions on upgrade as it seems unfair to me that some civs get to keep their ancient/classic era UUs around throughout the whole game whereas if you have a late UU, its impact is not as strong.

I's much prefer to see much stronger UUs but all of them lose them on upgrade. That may cause specific time rushes based around your UU, and it may give you reason to attack civ X before they get their powerful unit, but I think that would be worthwhile.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

They are unique units, not unique lines. I think all UUs should lose their unique promotions on upgrade as it seems unfair to me that some civs get to keep their ancient/classic era UUs around throughout the whole game whereas if you have a late UU, its impact is not as strong.

I's much prefer to see much stronger UUs but all of them lose them on upgrade. That may cause specific time rushes based around your UU, and it may give you reason to attack civ X before they get their powerful unit, but I think that would be worthwhile.

I just cannot agree with this, that just wouldn't be fun and some units would straight out be useless as a result. Jaguar, for instance, would obsolete almost instantly - you'd still make them super early, but the Spears are still better at fighting (except woods, and only sort-of). It'd all require too much balancing to get right. You'd get Woodsman, but the other promos are the meaningful ones.
As it is, I think it'd be better to just give weak, later Uniques which you've mentioned buffs of some sort to make their impact more palpable - if they need it, that is.

 

[matlajs]

UUs who just start with lvl3 promo do not loose anything. Maori warrior also keep their haka wardance, but atlatlis cannot keep his strike? they may be strong enough even without some shiny UU, but it feels unfair.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

UUs who just start with lvl3 promo do not loose anything. Maori warrior also keep their haka wardance, but atlatlis cannot keep his strike? they may be strong enough even without some shiny UU, but it feels unfair.

Hey, Atlatls are awesome as is. They come more than half an era earlier on a tech that gives Maya all their power and have insane damage as soon as someone is hit. I find it okay as they're one of the most dominant UUs already on a civ with no flaws, Crossbows with atlatl strike would be too good (especially since the name of the ability is ATLATL strike, and Crossbows don't throw Atlatls). I also find it fine that all the Elephants lose the Feared Elephant thing upon upgrade because it just makes sense.

 

[Moi Magnus]

They are unique units, not unique lines. I think all UUs should lose their unique promotions on upgrade as it seems unfair to me that some civs get to keep their ancient/classic era UUs around throughout the whole game whereas if you have a late UU, its impact is not as strong.

I's much prefer to see much stronger UUs but all of them lose them on upgrade. That may cause specific time rushes based around your UU, and it may give you reason to attack civ X before they get their powerful unit, but I think that would be worthwhile.

Not everybody agree with that. I don't like the concept of UU, and if the current situation is Ok, I would prefer making everything keeped on upgrade rather than nothing. (And buffibg late game UU in exchange)

 

[Galbias]

I'm not a huge fan of losing promotions on upgrade (sometimes you may not get a real chance to use your UU), but on the other hand Mayans and some other civs are already strong enough, they don't need a super good UU.

 

[8bitBob]

I feel like the last few updates have made Barbs both too smart and not aggressive enough. From what I can tell, they rarely will engage in combat if it's considered costly. This is technically smart behavior, since it means they're not taking heavy damage, but it's actually made them less threatening. I've had my first Warrior get swarmed with Barbs from fog of war, yet none of them will actually attack because he was on a hill and I fortified him. If they had been as aggressive as they were in the past he would have died for sure without a single loss, but because it would have been costly, none of them would engage. This has downgraded Barbs from being a threat to being a nuisance in my games: something difficult to clear out that often slows me down, but not very lethal.

 

[matlajs]

Hey, Atlatls are awesome as is. They come more than half an era earlier on a tech that gives Maya all their power and have insane damage as soon as someone is hit. I find it okay as they're one of the most dominant UUs already on a civ with no flaws, Crossbows with atlatl strike would be too good (especially since the name of the ability is ATLATL strike, and Crossbows don't throw Atlatls). I also find it fine that all the Elephants lose the Feared Elephant thing upon upgrade because it just makes sense.

crosbowman with strike would be too god? even vs samurai with tons of virtuese which you dont recognize as OP? interesting for me its a same like say that immortal upgraded into fusilier should loose his double healing ratio + defense bonus just bcoz he is rly immortal onto hill+ forest+ fortification in times, where persia wouldnt be really persia anymore. what is this logic? atlatlis has one promotion which should keep like almost every other UU do. thats a thing why i should keep spam a unit in a certain era with a certain civ to have something special in a future, when i dont need use it in that time. thats imho what does unit unique.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

crosbowman with strike would be too god? even vs samurai with tons of virtuese which you dont recognize as OP? interesting

The same could be said of the Zulu who get better stuff unless you get no less than 2-3 good virtues (Loyalty/Respect are awful), and that is assuming the second virtue isn't exactly the same as first, in which case the second virtue opportunity is wasted because they do not duplicate. Not to mention Japan is the warmonger coming online the latest*, which is pretty bad considering Authority is very reliant on early balling. Japan gets no help at that. Granted, you can go Progress though, it also works good for warmongers.
Additionally, Samurai with tons of virtues is basically two Uniques put together, just like my old pal, the Burial Tomb. Second virtue on a single unit usually RNGs itself in by around 10-15 cities and I've never had a third virtue before 20-30 cities, so you're not only talking about an unique - but an unique blessed by RNG enough so he didn't get Loyalty/Respect, has no wasted "duplicate" promo on an empire that already is very successful anyway for whom the UB's yields are not very significant at that point. By the time you have 20-30 cities, shouldn't you likely be in Renaissance or at least nearing it unless you went blindly wide while completely ignoring buildings? Either way, your Japan is going to be facing Tercio by this point. Compare them to Tercio made from Jaguars or Immortals.


*That's excluding France though, but it gets something from peace I guess so it's only a half warmonger? I don't know, it is just a weird civ, even the Chateau stopped being impressive after all the Ancient UIs got buffs making them do similar stuff which perhaps get less bang per tile, but are affecting way more tiles and are 2 eras earlier, while usually getting medieval/classical yield upgrades that make them not only keep up, but often overshadow the later ones. That is the case with probably all the medieval era UIs tho, early game ones are now often not only earlier and usually present on way more tiles, but are also very likely to even provide more yields per tile. Only Kasbah still rocks (but it really hates coasts), and Feitoria too I guess? But only if you count the Nau CS yields a part of it, and it does get decent in your lands only in mid-late Renaissance once you get its +yield techs there.

 

[Galbias]

This isn't really related to the recent patch, but one thing that I feel could use a balance tweak currently is Archaeologist costs. In my recent games I've found rushing Archaeology and spamming Archaeologists to be a bit too good; they're pretty cheap to build if you have good production, and if you get open borders with an AI, and then position and pop all of your Archaeologists at the same time (compensating for Antiquity Sites that are in forests) you can excavate 2-6 artifacts, claim you'll stop afterwards, and only get a -30 diplomatic penalty. And if you want to sacrifice one artifact for a landmark, you can get a +20 modifier to even out most of the penalty (not sure offhand if building multiple landmarks will give you a greater diplo boost).

It's not like this is massively overpowered or anything, but if it would be easy to implement, I think a 10-15% cost increase for each Archaeologist built would help make this a bit more fair. As it is it feels a bit cheesy when I can get such a massive boost to Tourism so easily.

 

[Enginseer]

I just think archaeologist should take longer to excavate those sites. With Progress and Pyramid, I can easily take out a few sites before the AI is even complaining that their artifacts belong to them.

 

[Galbias]

They only get angry at you once you actually finish the site and turn it into an artifact, before that you could be making a landmark for them. And there's no way to kick an Archaeologist that doesn't belong to you off a site, short of declaring war (or I guess Open Borders expiring maybe).

 

[tu_79]

They only get angry at you once you actually finish the site and turn it into an artifact, before that you could be making a landmark for them. And there's no way to kick an Archaeologist that doesn't belong to you off a site, short of declaring war (or I guess Open Borders expiring maybe).

I've been giving landmarks to minor civs just to negate the artifact to my cultural contenders (after I take the first one for me, of course).