None Dare Call it Christian Terrorism

Is Anders Breivik A 'Christian Terrorist'?

(RNS) The mass murders in Oslo have raised a host of agonizing questions, but few have such an ancient lineage and contemporary resonance as whether Anders Behring Breivik, the right-wing extremist behind the attacks that killed 76 Norwegians last Friday (July 22), is a Christian.

Breivik claimed that he is a Christian in various forums, but most explicitly and in greatest detail in the 1,500-page manifesto he compiled over several months and posted on the Internet.

"At the age of 15 I chose to be baptised [sic] and confirmed in the Norwegian State Church," the 32-year-old Breivik wrote. "I consider myself to be 100 percent Christian."

But he also fiercely disagrees with the politics of most Protestant churches and the Roman Catholic Church.

"Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I'm not an excessively religious man," he writes. "I am first and foremost a man of logic. However, I am a supporter of a monocultural Christian Europe."

Breivik fashions himself a "cultural Christian" and a modern-day crusader in a resurrected order of the medieval Knights Templar, riding out to do battle against squishy "multiculturalism" and the onslaught of "Islamization" -- and to suffer the glory of Christian martyrdom in the process.

Not surprisingly, conservative pundits who share some of Breivik's views and also consider themselves Christians quickly sought to distance themselves from Breivik by declaring, as Bill O'Reilly did on Fox News, that "Breivik is not a Christian."

"That's impossible," O'Reilly said Tuesday. "No one believing in Jesus commits mass murder. The man might have called himself a Christian on the 'net, but he is certainly not of that faith."

O'Reilly blamed the "liberal media" for "pushing the Christian angle" in order to demean Christians like himself. But O'Reilly's point was taken up by any number of commentators and religion scholars.

Mathew N. Schmalz, a professor of religious studies at the College of the Holy Cross, wrote in a Washington Post column that Breivik's vision "is a Christianity without Christ" because the attacker rejected a personal relationship with Jesus.

Writing in The Guardian, Andrew Brown wrote that "even in his saner moments (Breivik's) ideology had nothing to do with Christianity but was based on an atavistic horror of Muslims and a loathing of 'Marxists,' by which he meant anyone to the left of Genghis Khan."

Arne H. Fjeldstad, a longtime Norwegian journalist and Lutheran minister of the Church of Norway, wrote a lengthy analysis of Breivik's references to Christianity and also concluded that "his view is framed entirely by politics, with strong political and cultural opinions, which also include religious views."

"Breivik's religious position is rather distant from any Christian faith commitment," Fjeldstad wrote.

But others pushed back against such a carefully cordoned-off interpretation of Breivik's faith, or Christianity itself.

"If he did what he has alleged to have done, Anders Breivik is a Christian terrorist," Boston University religion scholar Stephen Prothero wrote on CNN.com.

"Yes, he twisted the Christian tradition in directions most Christians would not countenance. But he rooted his hate and his terrorism in Christian thought and Christian history, particularly the history of the medieval Crusades against Muslims, and current efforts to renew that clash."

"So Christians have a responsibility to speak out forcefully against him, and to look hard at the resources in the Christian tradition that can be used to such murderous ends."

Andrew Sullivan, the popular blogger and Catholic, also expounded on that point, writing that "it is obvious that Christians can commit murder, assault, etc. They do so every day. Because, as Christian orthodoxy tells us, we are all sinners. To say that no Christian can ever commit murder is a sophist's piffle. ... Do the countless criminals who have gone to church or believe in Jesus immediately not count as Christians the minute they commit the crime? Of course not."

Sullivan said Bill O'Reilly's argument "is complete heresy in terms of the most basic Christian orthodoxy."

And Sullivan is right, though for some 2,000 years Christians have still battled fiercely over who is a "real" Christian and who is not, or who is a "good" Christian and who is a "bad" Christian.

Is Christianity about being baptized or joining a particular church? Is faith a matter of true belief (orthodoxy) or just actions (orthopraxy)? Or some alchemical combination of the two? And what is the right belief? Or the right thing to do?

Many argue today that President Obama, for example, can't be a true Christian despite his profession of faith because of the liberal policies he proposes. Or that Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, a Tea Party favorite, can't be a real Catholic because he embraces the atheistic libertarianism of Ayn Rand in opposition to the teachings of the
Catholic Church.


Yet as far back as the fourth century, Saint Ambrose spoke of the church as a "casta meretrix" -- the "chaste harlot" who welcomes all comers while remaining pure herself in order to sanctify her members. That analogy still holds true.

Anders Breivik may have been a bad Christian, perhaps the worst one can imagine, as well as a confused man who cherry-picked from Scripture and history to justify his un-Christian form of Christianity.

But proof-texting the Bible and using faith to rationalize one's favorite political and cultural views is something most believers -- Jewish, Muslim and Christian -- are guilty of at one time or another. So kicking Breivik out of Christianity in the end might be an ominous sign for all Christians.
Where have we heard the nonsensical rhetoric espoused by Bill O'Reilly and others in this article before?
 
That isn't inflammatory. As you say, that's simple fact. Putting that title, guaranteed to get a rise out of Christians, on the thread as opened, which was with a news item that had nothing to do with Christian terrorism, was inflammatory.

So your basic assertion is that, even though Christians can be terrorists the same way as Muslims or anyone else, we shouldn't talk about it because it might offend Christians? How many threads have we had on Islamic terrorism again?

It is really no use. You see, Timsup2nothin actually hangs out with many white supremacists by his own admission.

Wait, really? Yikes.
 
So your basic assertion is that, even though Christians can be terrorists the same way as Muslims or anyone else, we shouldn't talk about it because it might offend Christians? How many threads have we had on Islamic terrorism again?



Wait, really? Yikes.

First off, no, that is standard blatant lying by Formy. I mentioned that I have experience with white supremacists, and with Christians, that Formy doesn't appear to have since he is presenting white supremacy as interchangeable with Christianity and he took it from there with his "hangs out with" explorations of fantasy. Most regulars here know the background on that experience so I didn't go into detail, but if you are curious you can ask.

Moving on.

No, that is not my basic assertion. My basic assertion is that rather than address the issue that while Christian terrorists (and he certainly could have found some if he tried) are generally not noted as such by media, people with somewhat vague connections to Islam at best are routinely referred to as "Islamic terrorists," this thread was titled to whistle in our local advocate of Christian fascism and the usual rabid atheist suspects for a brawl, and the opening post didn't live up to the title since it was a news item that ignored available genuine Christian terrorists and replaced them with a group that is Christian secondarily if at all.
 
White supremacy and Christianity go hand in hand when it comes to the KKK. The two things don't need to be separate.

And I suppose Tim is so mad because he associates himself with such people, as he mentioned. Maybe he's a member himself.
 
White supremacy and Christianity go hand in hand when it comes to the KKK. The two things don't need to be separate.

And I suppose Tim is so mad because he associates himself with such people, as he mentioned. Maybe he's a member himself.

What makes you think I'm mad? As to "associating myself with such people," my 'association' was arranged for me by the bureau of prisons. Not exactly my choice, but I did learn a lot from the experience. So when I suggest that your "oh those things go hand in hand according to Wikipedia, or this book I read" doesn't hold up in reality you can stand on your vast readings all day long, like Formy stands on internet videos...but it isn't going to convince me of anything.
 
So carry on choosing to be stubborn then, if your point of view isn't going to change regardless of overwhelming evidence showing how wrong you are, why do you continue to waste your time arguing in this thread?
 
Perhaps he has some vainglorious hope of imparting knowledge instead of just picking it up. His observations are analogous to mine, which are of inferior depth. It is interesting arguing on the internet though. It's like taking real life discussions, then converting a huge portion of the participants into born again evangelicals, then making every mundane piece of bs read on Wikipedia or spewed by some random friend/professor into a core article of faith.
 
So your basic assertion is that, even though Christians can be terrorists the same way as Muslims or anyone else, we shouldn't talk about it because it might offend Christians? How many threads have we had on Islamic terrorism again?

Wait, really? Yikes.
Just read this thread and find out for yourself. It is amazing he thinks he has any "credibility" in this forum based on the quantity of sheer nonsense he has tried to promulgate in his incessant personal attacks.

Speaking of which:

...since he is presenting white supremacy as interchangeable with Christianity...
You really don't care what obviously blatant nonsense in the form of inane strawmen you incessantly post about others. Do you?

...replaced them with a group that is Christian secondarily if at all.
Oops. There goes that "credibility" even more... How many facts can you deliberately overlook while trying to maintain that completely absurd position?

So carry on choosing to be stubborn then, if your point of view isn't going to change regardless of overwhelming evidence showing how wrong you are, why do you continue to waste your time arguing in this thread?
He is obviously trying all he can to derail it while even thinking he is actually destroying my "credibility".

Perhaps he has some vainglorious hope of imparting knowledge instead of just picking it up. His observations are analogous to mine, which are of inferior depth. It is interesting arguing on the internet though. It's like taking real life discussions, then converting a huge portion of the participants into born again evangelicals, then making every mundane piece of bs read on Wikipedia or spewed by some random friend/professor into a core article of faith.
Yes, it is much better sticking with preconceived notions based on limited personal experience no matter what facts are presented which directly contradict them, instead of even attempting to become a bit more educated so you your opinions are at least loosely based on actual facts. Because doing so is clearly like being "born again evangelicals, then making every mundane piece of bs read on Wikipedia or spewed by some random friend/professor into a core article of faith". :crazyeye:

You two do have much in common in this regard.

It is also ironic that you couch your wacky criticism in terms that far more reflect those who intentionally ignore the facts, so they can continue to believe the utter nonsense they represent as their own opinions. They intentionally move it into the world of faith thinking it becomes more impervious to the facts.

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." Mark Twain

"It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything." Stephen Colbert

"Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds. I have always kept an open mind, a flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of the intelligent search for truth." Malcolm X

"The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion." Arnold H. Glasow
 
I have no issue with bringing up Christian terrorism. People can point out passages in Koran and say, "Islam is not a religion of peace," to which Muslims eschew the violence, we speak of a few extremists vs. the faith, all that. That very same line of discussion can be pursued with the Christian faith.

My issue is with being singled out. Anti-Christian terrorism eclipses so-called "Christian terrorism" something serious; and is even government-sanctioned a lot of the time. Even this term "religious extremists": that singles out the religious. As if to imply the extremely religious are the terrorists. Hogwash. The non-religious are killing innocent people right there with the worst of them.
 
What in the world is that supposed to even mean? You obviously aren't being "singled out".

And who has stated that all of those who are "extremely religious" are terrorists? Talk about "hogwash".

If you wish to discuss "anti-Christian terrorism" and how it supposedly "eclipses so-called "Christian terrorism"", provide a URL which supports it and start a thread about it.

But this thread is about "Christian terrorism" and Christian hate crimes which are not officially classified as being "terrorism", unlike their Muslim counterparts that seem to always be labeled as such.

This is a major problem in the US along with other far-right extremist groups. (And before you complain, I am obviously not stating every single far-right extremist group are terrorists.)

Homegrown Extremists Tied to Deadlier Toll Than Jihadists in U.S. Since 9/11

WASHINGTON — In the 14 years since Al Qaeda carried out attacks on New York and the Pentagon, extremists have regularly executed smaller lethal assaults in the United States, explaining their motives in online manifestoes or social media rants.

But the breakdown of extremist ideologies behind those attacks may come as a surprise. Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, including the recent mass killing in Charleston, S.C., compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

“Law enforcement agencies around the country have told us the threat from Muslim extremists is not as great as the threat from right-wing extremists,” said Dr. Kurzman, whose study is to be published by the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security and the Police Executive Research Forum.

John G. Horgan, who studies terrorism at the University of Massachusetts, Lowell, said the mismatch between public perceptions and actual cases had become steadily more obvious to scholars.

“There’s an acceptance now of the idea that the threat from jihadi terrorism in the United States has been overblown,” Dr. Horgan said. “And there’s a belief that the threat of right-wing, antigovernment violence has been underestimated.”

If terrorism is defined as ideological violence, for instance, should an attacker who has merely ranted about religion, politics or race be considered a terrorist? A man in Chapel Hill, N.C., who was charged with fatally shooting three young Muslim neighbors had posted angry critiques of religion, but he also had a history of outbursts over parking issues. (New America does not include this attack in its count.)

Likewise, what about mass killings in which no ideological motive is evident, such as those at a Colorado movie theater and a Connecticut elementary school in 2012? The criteria used by New America and most other research groups exclude such attacks, which have cost more lives than those clearly tied to ideology.

Some killings by non-Muslims that most experts would categorize as terrorism have drawn only fleeting news media coverage, never jelling in the public memory. But to revisit some of the episodes is to wonder why.

In 2012, a neo-Nazi named Wade Michael Page entered a Sikh temple in Wisconsin and opened fire, killing six people and seriously wounding three others. Mr. Page, who died at the scene, was a member of a white supremacist group called the Northern Hammerskins.

In another case, in June 2014, Jerad and Amanda Miller, a married couple with radical antigovernment views, entered a Las Vegas pizza restaurant and fatally shot two police officers who were eating lunch. On the bodies, they left a swastika, a flag inscribed with the slogan “Don’t tread on me” and a note saying, “This is the start of the revolution.” Then they killed a third person in a nearby Walmart.

And, as in the case of jihadist plots, there have been sobering close calls. In November 2014 in Austin, Tex., a man named Larry McQuilliams fired more than 100 rounds at government buildings that included the Police Headquarters and the Mexican Consulate. Remarkably, his shooting spree hit no one, and he was killed by an officer before he could try to detonate propane cylinders he drove to the scene.

Some Muslim advocates complain that when the perpetrator of an attack is not Muslim, news media commentators quickly focus on the question of mental illness. “With non-Muslims, the media bends over backward to identify some psychological traits that may have pushed them over the edge,” said Abdul Cader Asmal, a retired physician and a longtime spokesman for Muslims in Boston. “Whereas if it’s a Muslim, the assumption is that they must have done it because of their religion.”

On several occasions since President Obama took office, efforts by government agencies to conduct research on right-wing extremism have run into resistance from Republicans, who suspected an attempt to smear conservatives.

A 2009 report by the Department of Homeland Security, which warned that an ailing economy and the election of the first black president might prompt a violent reaction from white supremacists, was withdrawn in the face of conservative criticism. Its main author, Daryl Johnson, later accused the department of “gutting” its staffing for such research.

William Braniff, the executive director of the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism at the University of Maryland, said the outsize fear of jihadist violence reflected memories of Sept. 11, the daunting scale of sectarian conflict overseas and wariness of a strain of Islam that seems alien to many Americans.

“We understand white supremacists,” he said. “We don’t really feel like we understand Al Qaeda, which seems too complex and foreign to grasp.”

The contentious question of biased perceptions of terrorist threats dates back at least two decades, to the truck bombing that tore apart the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995. Some early news media speculation about the attack assumed that it had been carried out by Muslim militants. The arrest of Timothy J. McVeigh, an antigovernment extremist, quickly put an end to such theories.

The bombing, which killed 168 people, including 19 children, remains the second-deadliest terrorist attack in American history, though its toll was dwarfed by the roughly 3,000 killed on Sept 11.

“If there’s one lesson we seem to have forgotten 20 years after Oklahoma City, it’s that extremist violence comes in all shapes and sizes,” said Dr. Horgan, the University of Massachusetts scholar. “And very often, it comes from someplace you’re least suspecting.”

The slaying of nine African-Americans in a Charleston church last week, with an avowed white supremacist charged with their murders, was a particularly savage case.

But it is only the latest in a string of lethal attacks by people espousing racial hatred, hostility to government and theories such as those of the “sovereign citizen” movement, which denies the legitimacy of most statutory law. The assaults have taken the lives of police officers, members of racial or religious minorities and random civilians.

Non-Muslim extremists have carried out 19 such attacks since Sept. 11, according to the latest count, compiled by David Sterman, a New America program associate, and overseen by Peter Bergen, a terrorism expert. By comparison, seven lethal attacks by Islamic militants have taken place in the same period.

If such numbers are new to the public, they are familiar to police officers. A survey to be published this week asked 382 police and sheriff’s departments nationwide to rank the three biggest threats from violent extremism in their jurisdiction. About 74 percent listed antigovernment violence, while 39 percent listed “Al Qaeda-inspired” violence, according to the researchers, Charles Kurzman of the University of North Carolina and David Schanzer of Duke University.
 
So if you ignore 9/11 itself and restrict your analysis to the USA so as to ignore Bali, 7/7, Tunisia and probably hundreds, if not thousands of other incidents around the world... then Christian terrorism is worse than Jihadist terrorism and everyone who uses phrases like 'Islamic terrorism' is a hypocrite.

Is this your thesis?
 
I don't know, calling KKK "christian" is like calling ISIS "muslim". Which is horribly wrong, IMO. there's reasons they're calling extremist, you know?

and article supporting argument isn't credible. It's like google for people who think you're right to considered to be valid argument. There's plenty people out there who think like what you want people to think and some aren't above writing biased article or, with intention or not, present biased data and statistic as fact, and some apparently buy it.

Did you ever saw an article of pure nonsense, and did you ever look back that your visionaries are basically doing the same thing?
 
Calling the KKK Christian isn't like calling ISIS Muslim. The primary motivation of the KKK is racism not religion.
 
So if you ignore 9/11 itself and restrict your analysis to the USA so as to ignore Bali, 7/7, Tunisia and probably hundreds, if not thousands of other incidents around the world... then Christian terrorism is worse than Jihadist terrorism and everyone who uses phrases like 'Islamic terrorism' is a hypocrite.

Is this your thesis?
Is it even possible for you to post anything regarding my own posts unless you make up utterly wacky nonsense such as this?

:rotfl:

Calling the KKK Christian isn't like calling ISIS Muslim. The primary motivation of the KKK is racism not religion.
You seem to know as much about so-called "motivation" as you do anything else.

95% of of all suicidal terrorists acts were not religiously motivated. But don't let the facts stand in the way of incessantly perpetuating nonsensical Islamophobic fearmongering.

And the KKK is obviously a Protestant organization which hates any religious group that isn't Protestant, including Catholics. That is a fact.
 
Is it even possible for you to post anything regarding my own posts unless you make up utterly wacky nonsense such as this?

:rotfl:

You seem to know as much about so-called "motivation" as you do anything else.

95% of of all suicidal terrorists acts were not religiously motivated. But don't let the facts stand in the way of incessantly perpetuating nonsensical Islamophobic fearmongering.

And the KKK is obviously a Protestant organization which hates any religious group that isn't, including Catholics. That is a fact.

So 95% of terrorist attacks are not religiously motivated (there is a handy list here) but this particular example is, on the sole evidence that an organisation that he used to be a member of is religiously motivated? You shall have to explain how you come to that conclusion.
 
The KKK is a racist organisation known almost exclusively for being racist.
 
So 95% of terrorist attacks are not religiously motivated
So you also cannot read a simple English sentence without twisting it into something else entirely?

This famous study has been posted numerous times already. But, of course, it continues to be ignored by those who want to continue to perpetuate clearly Islamophobic nonsense instead of even attempting to understand what the "motivations" actually are.

A central result has been the advent of a new theory to explain the phenomenon of suicide terrorism. Prior to 9/11, the expert debate on the causes of suicide terrorism was divided largely between two explanations, religious fanaticism and mental illness. In the years after 9/11, new research on who becomes a suicide terrorist showed that virtually none could be diagnosed as mentally ill, while many were religious and, most striking, nearly all emerged from communities resisting foreign military occupation. Dying to Win, published in 2005, was prominent in advancing this new explanation for the origins of suicide terrorism. From 1980 to 2003, there were 345 completed suicide terrorist attacks by 524 suicide terrorists who actually killed themselves on a mission to kill others, half of whom are secular. The world leader was the Tamil Tigers (a secular, Hindu group) who carried out more attacks than Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) during this period. Further, at least a third of the suicide attacks in predominantly Muslim countries were carried out by secular terrorist groups, such as the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) in Turkey. Instead of religion, what over 95% of all suicide terrorist attacks before 2004 had in common was a strategic goal: to compel a democratic state to withdraw combat forces that are threatening territory that the terrorists’ prize. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to the West Bank to Chechnya, the central goal of every suicide terrorist campaign has been to resist military occupation by a democracy.

In brief, the new research finds the following.

1) Strong confirmation for the hypothesis that military occupation is the main factor driving suicide terrorism. The stationing of foreign combat forces (ground and tactical air force units) on territory that terrorists prize accounts for 87% of the over 1,800 suicide terrorist attacks around the world since 2004. The occupation of Pakistan’s western tribal regions by local combat forces allied to American military forces stationed across the border in Afghanistan accounts for another 12%. Further, the timing of the deployment of combat forces threatening territory the terrorists prize accounts for the onset of all eight major suicide terrorist campaigns between 1980 and 2009, which together comprise 96% of the 2,188 attacks during that period. Simply put, military occupation accounts for nearly all suicide terrorism around the world since 1980. For this finding to be wrong, our research team would have had to miss hundreds of suicide attacks during this period, which is unlikely as readers can judge for themselves by reviewing the database of suicide attacks available online at cpost.uchicago.edu.

You shall have to explain how you come to that conclusion.
I use these things called "facts" instead of "statistics" perpetuated by Islamophobic fearmongering. I suggest you try doing the same.

The KKK is a racist organisation known almost exclusively for being racist.
Just because that is how you personally "know" them obviously doesn't make it factual. :crazyeye:

But that would require you to read the articles I posted in this thread instead of relying on silly preconceived notions you already had. Take the hate crime detailed in the OP, for instance. There are far more such incidents which makes your "almost exclusively" "thesis" so much utter nonsense.

Is racism the first thing people associate with the KKK? Quite possibly. But those who actually take the time and effort to educate themselves about this organization come to the inescapable conclusion they hate far more people than just blacks, and they always have.

Spoiler :
1024px-KKK_-_St_Patricks_Dau.jpg


1280px-Theendkkk.jpg


Just as overly simplistic rationalizations of Muslim terrorism leads to rampant Islamophobia, misunderstanding the basic "motivations" of the KKK and other religious-based hate groups which are not Muslim leads to equally faulty conclusions.
 
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