Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation

Hey man, I merely pointed out the pattern... what conclusion you come to about it is your deal.
I guess "ch" is a tough combo sometimes.

Indeed. I am sorry I mistyped. It is my fault that I mistyped, not yours. I apologize for the vague penis reference in the typo. Would you like me to create a copypaste apology for any thread I address you in? I would probably do that if you desire.
 
Don't forget that China also piggybacked US and Western consumption spending. Whatever else may be true, they would not have developed as they had had they not had foreign customers with deep pockets to finance it.

It played a role, but I'm not sure it was that important. International trade mostly benefited China through technology transfer. As for markets they could conceivably have arranged their country for their citizens to consume however much they decided to produce.

And a giant chunk of that military/quasi-economic heavy lifting power is in Naval and Air Power.

That's something that can't be built up or replaced quickly. Even if China does overtake the United States economically (and that's something that takes a lot more then having a larger aggregate GDP), it would take decades to physically construct a fleet and airforce, and supporting infrastructure to match ours.

At the end of the day, the United States still decides which planes and boats can go where in the world, and that grants them a status no one else in the world has.

Don't discount how fast the cold force of economic pressure and unforeseen internal conflict or change can dismantle existing military power. You just have to look at how quickly british military power collapsed post-ww2 to see one example. Or the even more sudden collapse of the soviet military.
 
It played a role, but I'm not sure it was that important. International trade mostly benefited China through technology transfer. As for markets they could conceivably have arranged their country for their citizens to consume however much they decided to produce.


"Could have" and "would have" are 2 extremely different things. Recall that in most cases in the world's economic history preventing labor from becoming mass consumers has been one of the major goals of public, and private, policy. he main cause of poverty in the world is leaders who want labor to remain poor. China is no different in that. China has allowed a portion of its population to have rising income simply because they reached a point at which they could not achieve their other goals without it. Not because they wanted to.
 
You do to me, yes. But I have a very strong disgust towards any kind of nationalism and patriotism, and the fact that some of those people seem to think their country is 'alive' and not merely a structure constructed over the years, think it's just the same as the one it was at it's foundation and think they're distinctly different from people in other countries is annoying me to great ends too.

Do I personally fit into the category you have described?
 
You're a nice chap Mr Hobbs.

But what I don't really understand is when anyone talks about "my country" as if they actually did something to merit owning a particular area of the planet.

I honestly don't believe anyone owns any land at all. I think we belong to the land. Not vice versa.

But, having said that, a little bit of nationalist feeling is not necessarily a bad thing. Like cheering on a team at the Olympics.

It very soon gets out of hand, though.
 
I guess I'd just say that we have not, as a species, advanced to the point where any alternatives to countries owning land is not viable.

I will edit in more later, I have a lot to say on this but I just downloaded KSP .18.
 
hobbsyoyo said:
I guess I'd just say that we have not, as a species, advanced to the point where any alternatives to countries owning land is not viable.

How do you know?
 
We also still have kingdoms and tribal societies, but that doesn't mean democratic government is impossible.
 
No, I was surprised that you used the word 'we'.

People refer to their families as "we." People refer to their alums as "we." People refer to their sports team as "we." At our better moments, we may even refer to our neighbors as "we." "We" just means that we as members of our country share in it's communal shame when we do something harmful in our aggregate. We send soldiers places. We ask our sons to die in places they may care not about, be they desert sands in the Middle East or the fields of France. We do these things. We owe our soldiers care. We owe our children opportunity. We owe our parents gratitude for that which they have done right. We also deserve some, diluted, credit when we get something right. Maybe at some point in a happier future it will be more accurate to ascribe functions of aggregate human actions in a more global scale. As is, many communal actions are still undertaken at the level of a nation. There is no reason I see fit to not have some shared pride with my countrymen when our aggregate effort winds up being laudable. Likewise, I am still ashamed of us when we destroy, even if I explicitly voted against the developments that caused it to come to pass.
 
We died on September 11, 2001. That day we made the final choice to stop being a Republic and start being an Empire. Its only a matter of "When" now.
 
We died on September 11, 2001. That day we made the final choice to stop being a Republic and start being an Empire. Its only a matter of "When" now.

Negative. We are many things, constantly changing. You don't get to write off the past 11 years, even if we may want to.
 
You guys really don't like chicken do you?

Go read your website.

I really don't follow other than the fact that I do, indeed, like chicken on occasion.
 
We died on September 11, 2001. That day we made the final choice to stop being a Republic and start being an Empire. Its only a matter of "When" now.
There are worse instances of imperialism in American history than Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
Don't discount how fast the cold force of economic pressure and unforeseen internal conflict or change can dismantle existing military power. You just have to look at how quickly british military power collapsed post-ww2 to see one example. Or the even more sudden collapse of the soviet military.
Britain's naval power was already radically diminished immediately after the second world war.

A better comparison would be the British and Germans during the lead up to the first world war. Despite a better economy, and a supposedly neck and neck arms race, Britain always far outclassed the German navy simply by having a much more expansive naval infrastructure.

But that still requires a radical collapse of the American economy. What we're talking about here is a relative decline of the American economy vis a vis the Chinese economy. That is, America stagnates or even suffers small economic retraction while China continue to grow.

Even if China had economic and technological supremacy today it would take them decades to reach naval/air supremacy in the world.
 
GhostWriter16 said:
We died on September 11, 2001. That day we made the final choice to stop being a Republic and start being an Empire. Its only a matter of "When" now.

Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up. We just had an election and we just pulled out of Iraq. You're allowed to post idiotic and incidentally anti-governmental trash on US-based websites. Shut up.
 
Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up. We just had an election and we just pulled out of Iraq. You're allowed to post idiotic and incidentally anti-governmental trash on US-based websites. Shut up.

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Negative. We are many things, constantly changing. You don't get to write off the past 11 years, even if we may want to.

The past 11 years have done more to turn America into a police state than Adams, Lincoln, and Franklin Roosevelt combined. That's saying something.

Serious answer coming below...

There are worse instances of imperialism in American history than Iraq and Afghanistan.

Its not just the wars, we've always thought violence was the solution to everything. Well, we actually tried the peace route for the US Revolution and the War in 1812 (It failed, both times) but in every war after that we haven't tried to. We've always been an imperialistic culture. Every other nation ended slavery by peaceful means, America got warmongering, fascist, totalitarian Lincoln. We provoked the Spanish-American War, the Mexican War, and we wanted both World Wars (WWII was justified IMO, but our President still wanted it, and did everything in his power to make Japan attack us). And then we created the excuses to attack Afghanistan, Iraq (Twice), Vietnam, exc.

After 9/11, the American people FREAKED. Of course, panic mode is understandable, calling for the immediate invasion of a foreign power that had little to do with it is not. Yet the war went virtually unquestioned, even initially by Ron Paul himself (Kudos to Barbara Lee here, but even in that case it was only skepticism that the war would be handled correctly, not that the war should not have been fought.) There was NO anti-war movement, for awhile.

The Patriot Act was passed without practically a moment of debate. That ultimately sealed our fate. The American people, or their leaders, chose safety over freedom. And just watch, we will lose both as Franklin predicted.

Yes, we are still, sort of, a free country now. We may even continue to exist in a quasi-freedom state for the next hundred years, for all I know. But 9/11 was the beginning of the end. Not the beginning of the end of perfect freedom, the aforementioned Adams, Lincoln, and FDR absolutely devastated freedom in America during their terms, but I fear that this time we may never return to sanity of any kind again.

The American people have become like sheep. They don't even care about their freedoms anymore as long as government keeps them safe. They don't even question why we have military in 160 doggone countries.

We are the Roman Empire. I just hope I'm dead before I'm proven right, meaning that I hope we do, in fact, delay the inevitable.

Shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up. We just had an election and we just pulled out of Iraq. You're allowed to post idiotic and incidentally anti-governmental trash on US-based websites. Shut up.

Our "Election" was a joke. The only legitimate alternatives were the third party candidates that nobody knew about (Best of wishes to all of them, even the left-wing ones:)). While they disagreed on fiscal issues, all of them save perhaps Virgil Goode wanted more liberty in the social sphere, and all of them wanted a better foreign policy. And yet over 98% of voters blindly voted for one of the two that differed from each other even less than Ron Paul differs from his son.

There weren't too options, there was one, and his name was "Hawk" or perhaps "Peeping Tom." Neither was a friend to any kind of liberty.

And until I am forced not to do so, I will continue to use the freedom I still have to speak against the Beast that is the United States government.
 
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