OSG-25 with kyrub's patch (1.40m)

[ToddMarshall]

2394: The Sakkra have 69 Fighter's headed to Morro next turn, at least, that's all I can SEE coming anyway. Lets hope there are no more stealth frigates... There's another wave behind that that looks like this:

I see no point in trying to fight those with my fighters or the 2 frigates if they have lasers... The Sakkra DO have IC's, but hopefully they wouldn't fit when they designed these things...

The wave behind that? Eh, we'll just have to see...

There was not much to do this turn.

IT -

Oh, goodie, we might lose the planet now... OR, maybe I'll just out fly those things with their terrible maneuver! They never fire a single shot as our 2 stacks dance around the edges while our bases pick them apart! They finally flee when they have 23 ships left.

Meanwhile, a lone Klackon bomber shows up at Phyco, and immediately leaves.

OH, this is good!

But what to take? One of the bazillion planetology items? We could get something really useful... OR weapons... In weapons they have Neutron Blasters and Merculites. Both the same level of tech, and we're 1/3 of the way to Mercs now... I decide to play the lottery and see if we can get lucky in planetology.

Useful... Of course, it was the tech we were researching... New picks were Soil Enrichment, Bio Toxin Antidote, and Controlled Radiated. I really don't know what the right choice is here. The Klackons have Death Spores, so the antidote could be important. Soil Enrichment would help a lot, but would be redundant if Advanced Soil is in the tree, and Controlled Radiated would let us grab that size 40 Toxic in our backyard, and is something we'll definitely want at some point. I decide to hope we can survive the spores, and that we can always go back for Radiated, and press forward with a "we need help now" tech and choose Soil Enrichment.

2395: I dial spying back on the Klackons and Meklars for now, and concentrate on the Sakkra, with whom we're making progress. I'd like to get a really good planetology tech and trade it with the Psilons for something good.

IT -

OK, that's too much firepower to leave to the 4 bases, and I'm not going to be able to out dance those mediums, so we're going to have to fight it out... Final causality total: All 8 remaining Arrows, and 2 Falcons for us, everything for them.

Meanwhile, at Phyco, I repel a 3 bomber attack.

OH, what's this, a steal off the MEklars with every field except propulsion? Lookie what I found

Did I say I was going to have to dial back on spying on the Meklars and Klackons? Never mind!

2396: Well, now that I have something the Psilons want, lesee if I can get something from them that might make our situation a bit more tenable...

Actually. I had TWO somethings they wanted. Since they were already to BCIII/JammerVI, but had no planetology cleanup AND this would have been state of the art for them, I decided to give them the Battle Computer. That SHOULD buy us a bit of time and will now make our bases impervious to the dreaded ion cannon fighters!

I dial spying back up against the Klackons and Meklar. The techs that the Darloks have (Shield V and RIW60) aren't really that appealing anymore, and their internal security enhancement makes it not worth the spending imo.

IT -

Klackons show up at Phyco with a new (at least to us) design:

Well, the bases aren't safe from this design (shield doesn't update till later in the IT anyway!) Oh, and REPULSOR BEAMS This is definitely NOT good. Of course, the ship has a speed of 1, which IS good. We blow it up before it ever gets to the planet. Meanwhile, our fighters and eventually the bases kill all but one of their bombers.

Elsewhere in space

I hadn't even realized the Sakkra had the plague... The events have not been kind to them this game.

2397: Nothing is going to attack us this interturn! Hurrah! There's nothing excithing (or at all) to do this turn though.

IT - Jinga maxes out, starts research, effectively doubling our research!

2398 - I shut down production of our falcons at HomeWorld, meaning we've now trippled our research! There's going to be a Meklar and a Sakkra fleet arriving at Morro soon, but the Sakkra don't have anything that can get through our shields, and the Klackons only have 2 medium ships that are of unknown design headed in. I think we're ok, and we really NEED the research anyhow, so I risk it...

IT - Not a sleeper interturn yet!

Planetology please! OK, wadda we get?

Bah, Controlled Tundra (forgot to screenshot it). Thats a dud tech

2399: Nothing to do.

IT - Sakkra Fleet shows up at Moro

We could probably blow up most of those useless fighters with minimal if any losses, but there is No sense getting anything blown out of the sky vs things that offer no threat to the planet, so I retreat. Besides, the Kalcons have a fleet incoming next turn, and who knows whats on those 2 mystery mediums.

The bases take out 3 of the 4 mediums. The rest of their fleet retreats.

Next up.

OK, lets try this again!

There, that's better!

Ummm, holy crap

All this time I haven't noticed we've had ESPIONAGE on vs the PSILONS? Who turned that on that I didn't notice? Uggggg, after I steal this tech, I'm turning that off for the rest of my non existent turn set. Really, we have only one friend, who's been invaluable in trading stuff to us, and we're risking pissing them off too? Seriously? Please don't let them declare war, we NEED at least one trading partner.

Now, what to steal. Honestly, I've not totally been keeping up, but I know they have computer tech that's better than ours, and since stealing is kind of our lifeblood right now, I go for that.

Well, thats a crappy tech. Last I knew they only had advanced stuff and no duds there. Oh well.

VOTE TIME: It's the Psilons vs the Sakkra. Sakkra 8 votes themselves, Klackons 4 votes the Sakkra, Meklars 4 votes the Psilons, Psilons 6 votes themselves, Darloks 2 votes the Psilons. US, 5 votes Abstain. Final score

Whew, survived another one of those...

I've not done anything on the new turn. We could probably make a deal or two with the Psilons if you want. Not sure.

Sorry that we're in no position to go busting heads, but at least we're no longer in a position of being decapitated!

I'd post some power graphs and such, but I'm exhausted. I got one hour of sleep last night. So, yeah... I DO want to point out that contrary to popular belief, the Psilons are not the main competition anymore. The Klackons have taken two of their planets near our boarder Pictures tomorrow if I get time.

Save will be up shortly.

 

[RefSteel]

Great turns, Maniac! Now, let's see if we can get back into this game after the long layoff!

One key thing I noticed from the report (among many) was the attention to the spying game. Taking advantage of our computer tech while we had it (and it looks like thanks to Maniac's efforts, with most races, we still do) an espionage budget of just 8% of our empire's gross income netted us Enhanced - and then Advanced! - Eco Restoration, BC IV, Duralloy Armor, ECM III, and Controlled Tundra, all within ten years: A better haul than we could have achieved through research even if our techies had gotten not 8 but 80% of our income. There's of course a point of diminishing returns (there's no One Right Answer for where to spend your budget in Orion) - so maxing out the espionage slider wouldn't have improved things (and might well have made them much worse) but what we did spend in Maniac's turn set is a big part of the reason we're now very much in this game.

(Presented in the hope that alzgamer is still lurking and interested.)

That and of course his brilliant combat instincts. Defending against a four-on-one dogpile when our missile bases have (initially) only class 2 shields and hyper-vaporware and we can't build a non-laser fighter that can hit the broad side of a missile silo ... isn't easy. (Particularly since kyrub's patch appears to have fixed some of the AI's fleet-handling problems.)

I believe I'm up at this point, unless Zed-F wants to step in. (It doesn't look like we'll be in a position to try attacking anything in the next ten turns, although I've been wrong about that before.)

If so, consider this a GOT IT! I should be able to play and report sometime in the next two days. In the meantime though, discussion would be great - if only to get our heads back into the game.

 

[RefSteel]

Hoping to get discussion started right away:

I plan to continue spying constantly (I'll try to keep ~2 spies active in each race's space whenever possible) on all the non-Psilon races unless and until one of them gets a severe espionage lead ... or runs out of techs we really need. Even the Darloks are going to remain a target, because....

(Another one for alzgamer)

...they have apparently decided that with their incredible natural spying advantages, they don't need any computer technology.

I'm also thinking about designing a new NPG fighter, without a Stabilizer and therefore with less tactical speed, but with the same defensive rating as our Falcons (due to space for another maneuver and the small ship bonus), the same battle computer, and the potential to put ~twice as many guns in space for the same cost in BCs. (We of course did not have the miniaturization needed for such a design when Maniac/Catwalk originally designed the Falcons). Considering the composition of the Klackon fleet, I suspect these will prove a more effective defense than more bases for the time being.

Beyond that, I'll probably focus on research: As mentioned above, while spying is incredibly valuable, research remains a key component of our success. In terms of tech priorities, I plan to ... keep all the fields locked and equal, naturally.

I'm also going to be on the lookout for opportunites of making peace with somebody. All the wars going on may mean that slagging combat fleets will give us enemy-of-my-enemy points with somebody. Or..... Or.....

The lizards DO have only shield 3 at the moment ... and the 'loks have shield 5, but no planetaries. The nearest lizard planet to us is the perpetually-embattled Centauri, acquired by them within the past twenty years. Darlok Guradas, their nearest planet to us, has only a single missile base.... And both are within our miserable 5-parsec range.....

So ... Zed-F ... still interested in a cameo? 'Cause there will surely be some defensive shooting to do ... and there might even be a chance to go on the offensive someplace. In fact, if Zed-F doesn't take it first, then the rest of you have a day or so to convince me that this thing doesn't fall into the "so crazy it just might work" category:

 

[TheArchduke]

That is not at all a crazy design.

It is a high cost design as those things will be shot from the sky like flies in normal battles.

But pushing forward 1-2 planets is invaluable given our situation, so i say go ahead.


Nice spy work on the last turnset, guys!

 

[Zed-F]

I will be away for just under a week starting tomorrow anyway, so go ahead RefSteel.

And without looking at the save, picking on a weak neighbor is probably a good thing to be doing at the moment.

 

[RaiddinnRZ]

Can you give that 1 more hit point for the last 1 space?

I noticed that Titanium is highlighted atm.

Raid

 

[RefSteel]

Can you give that 1 more hit point for the last 1 space?

I noticed that Titanium is highlighted atm.

Raid

Yes, it is definitely possible to put duralloy on the Gull ... but it would cost 17 BC instead of 15.

(In case any lurkers are unaware of the importance of this: Another thing I love about MoO is that cramming as much equipment as possible onto a given hull is not always necessary or appropriate - again, not a One Right Answer. In this case, especially as Alkari, our fighter-class ships' defenses will be based on not getting hit at all, so they don't much care what happens when/if they do. And the difference between 3 and 4 hp is usually negligible as most of the weapons our enemies are fielding will be overkilling ships like this (IF they hit) either way. The difference between 15 and 17 BC though is two more bombs in space for every 255 BC we spend, which is a pretty big deal with ships like these.)

Also: Thanks, Zed!

And is this a consensus I'm seeing for actually trying this (these?) crazy attack(s)?!

I think my only appropriate response would be....

"Killlll, my pretty bombers! Kill! Kill! Killlllllllll!!!"

(Insert maniacal laughter here.)

 

[ToddMarshall]

...an espionage budget of just 8% of our empire's gross income netted us Enhanced - and then Advanced! - Eco Restoration, BC IV, Duralloy Armor, ECM III, and Controlled Tundra, all within ten years

Not to mention H-X and Shield IV, two key techs, were acquired by trading thefted techs.

We're 3rd in tech, pretty amazing...

That and of course his brilliant combat instincts. Defending against a four-on-one dogpile when our missile bases have (initially) only class 2 shields and hyper-vaporware and we can't build a non-laser fighter that can hit the broad side of a missile silo ... isn't easy. (Particularly since kyrub's patch appears to have fixed some of the AI's fleet-handling problems.)

It isn't easy. If we weren't the Alkari or possibly the mrrshans, we'd be dead now. Kyrub's patch does make the AI a lot more deadly. I think we've gotten lucky this game that the Sakkra got hit hard by events, and the Klackons and Psilons are keeping each other in check. If they teamed up, we'd likely have lost.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Hoping to get discussion started right away:

I plan to continue spying constantly (I'll try to keep ~2 spies active in each race's space whenever possible) on all the non-Psilon races unless and until one of them gets a severe espionage lead ... or runs out of techs we really need. Even the Darloks are going to remain a target, because....

(Another one for alzgamer)

Only reason I didn't spy on them was because by the time I saw what they had, I didn't think it was worth trying to overcome their security. RIW60 is negilgible in benefit, but wouldn't husr. Same for shield 5.

I'm also thinking about designing a new NPG fighter, without a Stabilizer and therefore with less tactical speed, but with the same defensive rating as our Falcons (due to space for another maneuver and the small ship bonus), the same battle computer, and the potential to put ~twice as many guns in space for the same cost in BCs. (We of course did not have the miniaturization needed for such a design when Maniac/Catwalk originally designed the Falcons). Considering the composition of the Klackon fleet, I suspect these will prove a more effective defense than more bases for the time being.

Probably so. I quit making those Frigates the last 3 turns, because, frankly, they aren't very good, though they did save the planet. Also, I assumed you'd want to make a design of your own

Beyond that, I'll probably focus on research: As mentioned above, while spying is incredibly valuable, research remains a key component of our success. In terms of tech priorities, I plan to ... keep all the fields locked and equal, naturally.

I'm looking forward to those Merculite Missiles and the Planetary shields.

I'm also going to be on the lookout for opportunites of making peace with somebody. All the wars going on may mean that slagging combat fleets will give us enemy-of-my-enemy points with somebody. Or..... Or....

The lizards DO have only shield 3 at the moment ... and the 'loks have shield 5, but no planetaries. The nearest lizard planet to us is the perpetually-embattled Centauri, acquired by them within the past twenty years. Darlok Guradas, their nearest planet to us, has only a single missile base.... And both are within our miserable 5-parsec range.....

Lets stay at war with the Sakkra. I want their planetology techs.

In fact, if Zed-F doesn't take it first, then the rest of you have a day or so to convince me that this thing doesn't fall into the "so crazy it just might work" category:

That's pretty crazy. I have to admit, though, I considered and rejected a similar idea on my turn... less miniaturization ago mind you. I dono, risky. I'm pretty conservative and probably wouldn't, but it might work and we need more planets badly.

Sakkra have only shield 4, but do have Mercs. Klackons have only shield 4 but have STINGERS , Meklars have shield EIGHT, but only H-V, and Darloks Shield 7 and H-V... Hmmm, remember when I said I wouldn't regret tradint them Hyper-V? If I hadn't done that, we could now build a huge with shield 4 and be impervious to their bases In fact, it still might be worth doing. 48 nuke bombs on a huge, and they could only barely scratch it.

EDIT Of course, it would take forever to build, so probably not...

 

[RefSteel]

Probably so. I quit making those Frigates the last 3 turns, because, frankly, they aren't very good, though they did save the planet. Also, I assumed you'd want to make a design of your own

Heheh: Thanks. I do enjoy playing around with the ship design screen! After looking more closely at their bombers and our fleet though, I think I'm still going to build a couple more bases up at Moro at least.

I'm looking forward to those Merculite Missiles and the Planetary shields.

Indeed ... although per the discussion above, I may well concentrate less on research than I expected.

Lets stay at war with the Sakkra. I want their planetology techs.

<Evil grin> Okay!

Sakkra have only shield 4, but do have Mercs.

I'm not too worried about their missiles; if they don't improve their battle computers between now and when our attack arrives, only one merc in twenty will even hit anything. Klackon Stingers+BC4 represent a bigger problem, obviously (40% hit rate) but per Zed's suggestion and my proposal, they're not the target right now anyway. (Neither are the Meklar ... probably.) But most importantly:

Darloks Shield 7 and H-V... Hmmm, remember when I said I wouldn't regret tradint them Hyper-V? If I hadn't done that, we could now build a huge with shield 4 and be impervious to their bases

Don't worry about it. Unless they turn up with a huge battle computer upgrade soon, none of their missiles (to speak of) will hit anything. And those shields? Look again: Those are Class V deflectors, not planetaries. (Presumably stolen from the Psilons...) Those two fewer points of defense make a big difference ... or would, if our target world were to actually get a meaningful number of missile bases in time.

Now, is it safe to count on tech levels staying where they are long enough for me to put together an assault fleet?

Maybe not.

But we're going to find out, I think!

 

[RefSteel]

Hmmm. Diplomatic question: Should we take a side in the Klackon-Psilon war? Obviously, we're at war with the bugs already, but at this point are we hoping for peace, or ... not? 'Cause we could probably get an alliance with Kelvan if we asked nicely....

(He like us is at war with literally everyone else in the galaxy, but I'm not really afraid of anyone except the bugs and maybe the machines.)

[EDIT: To clarify, I don't think there's any chance of actually getting peace with the bugs any time soon unless they decide to request it or we make a lot of headway with enemy-of-my-enemy diplomacy. Still, there's a difference between looking for a chance at peace and establishing an alliance with one of their enemies.]

 

[ToddMarshall]

I bet the Klackons would give us peace if we asked, but I dono if we should bother.

Meklar are erratic, and not worth bothering to ask, though maybe we should ask Kelvan to declare on them so we don't get drug into war with the Psilons if they ally?

Darloks surely won't give peace for a while... they're not worth getting peace with right now.

Sakkra should be our target, so no peace there.

I'm not terribly big on alliances, but I'm ambivalent to this one. Every time I make one, I wind up at war with someone I'd rather not war with. Plus, it increases the chance of them breaking the treaty vs breaking a nap, causing us to not be able to talk to them, which is bad.

I'm actually going to suggest trading them a cleanup tech though, if we can get a good deal for one. I purposely withheld them earlier as they have NONE. But not they;re looking kinda vulnerable to the Klackons. Maybe we don't want to trade them our BEST cleanup, but some.

 

[RefSteel]

Well, the Psilons are already at war with literally everyone but us in the galaxy, so no need to ask them about the 'chines. I don't like the idea of trading them cleanup tech just to prop them up, and I doubt they'll offer anything we really need for just Improved Eco. I normally don't like alliances either, for just the reasons you mentioned, but this one might possibly be worthwhile, depending on events. (I'm not going to ask for one right away.)

I guess my real question is: If I see a tactical reason to do so, do others have an opinion on the overall advisability of allying with them, strategically?

[EDIT: Possible tactical reasons: To take advantage of refueling bases to explore and/or attack deeper into the galaxy, or to avoid fighting with them if we manage to conquer a world over which they also have a fleet.]

 

[ToddMarshall]

Well, the Psilons are already at war with literally everyone but us in the galaxy

That's odd. Could have sworn the Psilons got votes in the election.

 

[RaiddinnRZ]

I just wanted to throw it out there that I pretty much never trade an AI any tech that will improve their economy.

Waste 60 from waste 0 is a pretty large upgrade. Almost halving the amount that gets spent on waste which is a lot of points that can go immediately into research.

I would be against doing something like that.

Even Waste 60 from Waste 80 would still be 1/4 of total spending on waste which isn't minor.

In any event, I think I might like to take worlds the darloks at this point if it was in any way possible. I haven't loaded up a game recently, though, so I don't know much about their number of worlds or the position of them.

Raid

 

[alzgamer]

Lurker
Still lurking, still interested.
Poor Darloks, thay have 0 fleet. Looks like they are about to lose all their planets. Pray its not Meklars who take the planets.

 

[RefSteel]

@Maniac: They may have gotten votes from races at war with both them and their opposition. There are a LOT of wars in the galaxy. It might also be possible that someone declared war on them just AFTER the election - I know they can do it to us, but I'm not sure how it works for them.

I just wanted to throw it out there that I pretty much never trade an AI any tech that will improve their economy.

Waste 60 from waste 0 is a pretty large upgrade. Almost halving the amount that gets spent on waste which is a lot of points that can go immediately into research.

I would be against doing something like that.

Even Waste 60 from Waste 80 would still be 1/4 of total spending on waste which isn't minor.

In any event, I think I might like to take worlds the darloks at this point if it was in any way possible. I haven't loaded up a game recently, though, so I don't know much about their number of worlds or the position of them.

Raid

I pretty much agree with all of this. There are always exceptions to everything - for instance, when I'm really afraid of a true runaway AI (unlike this game's flash-in-the-pan Psilons) I sometimes want to prop up one of their war targets intentionally, which I think is what Maniac was thinking above - but the Psilons don't need it here, and they still lead the universe in tech even without our help. Oh, and as for your Darlok comment ... see below!

Lurker
Still lurking, still interested.
Poor Darloks, thay have 0 fleet. Looks like they are about to lose all their planets. Pray its not Meklars who take the planets.

Pray? Pray?! Well, we can pray my plan works, but I plan to take slightly more direct action about the future of these Darlok worlds!

Note: Annnnd ... now playing!

 

[ToddMarshall]

We'd have to HAVE RIW60 before we could trade it... I was suggesting trading them something like Improved Ecco or RIW80 as they appear to be in a bit of trouble against the Klackons, and the one of the last things we need right now is the Klackons continuing to take planets off of them.

I'd only trade a good tech like Advanced Ecco if we're getting something pretty spectacular in return. Right now, these Psilons, I wouldn't hesitate to trade cleanup to, they're struggling to keep pace with the Klackons. Keeping the two relatively even would be preferred.

 

[RaiddinnRZ]

I don't there there could really be any exceptional circumstances short of a 1 planet empire that would warrant giving huge economic advantages to the Psilons.

Doing so could potentially double or triple their research budget, if not even more.

Waste 100 to Waste 80 is still 20% less spending which could quite easily pass 5% of galactic resources.

If they are going to get conquered all over the place without waste 80, they will probably still be conquered all over the place even if they have it.

If they aren't going to get conquered all over the place without it, then I would rather they don't have the extra can't be taken away long term game advantage.

I would rather see Klackons get 3 Psilon worlds than vice versa.

Raid

 

[ToddMarshall]

I don't there there could really be any exceptional circumstances short of a 1 planet empire that would warrant giving huge economic advantages to the Psilons.

Doing so could potentially double or triple their research budget, if not even more.

Waste 100 to Waste 80 is still 20% less spending which could quite easily pass 5% of galactic resources.

If they are going to get conquered all over the place without waste 80, they will probably still be conquered all over the place even if they have it.

If they aren't going to get conquered all over the place without it, then I would rather they don't have the extra can't be taken away long term game advantage.

I would rather see Klackons get 3 Psilon worlds than vice versa.

Raid

RIW80 is NOT a huge economic advantage, it's a moderate advantage. There are MANY times when giving other races economics advantages is a good thing. It's the exception to the rule, sure, but it's not like it's only to your advantage to do so once every 100 games or so. The Klackons have already started winning the war, and are looking like the co-tech leaders. We're a small, barely getting by 5 planet empire, and we need at least one trading partner at the moment. I fail to see why it's in our best interest to see our only friend in the universe die. These are not scary, runaway Psilons that will be slagging us with Black Hole Generators and Mauler Device Smalls in the next 50 years. I'm more afraid of the Klackons right now, though admittedly the Klackons USUALLY fail at designing useful ships, and I still think we SHOULD win now, especially if we can secure warp 4 and a good bomb.