Outside Agitators!! Think YOu Can Ruin Our Happy Valley!

JohnRM said:
You can't say with any degree of intellectual honesty that "all the people affiliated with the institution" are guilty. If you are making that claim, then we're at an impasse and this conversation is pointless.
Nobody here is making that claim.

The claim is that there is an institutional mindset to cover up and prevent criminal prosecution of an employee who was known to be a child rapist.

Where's the impasse?

Don't you agree that this is inexcusable?

If this weren't about the head of the department in charge of a game involved with throwing balls at 'one the leading US research institutions' rather than a religious sleep-away camp would you feel the same way? I strongly doubt it.
 
To try to turn this topic into something more useful: Does anyone else keep reading the first part of the title as "Outside Alligators"?
 
They did all benefit from it though, once again, its no different than punishing a business who breaks the law.

Well, you benefited from the genocide of native Americans and slavery. What does that make you? I hope that, by the same logic, you're ready to start forking up your share of back-wages to the descendants of slaves, compensation for land lost by native Americans, and to move off the land which you currently occupy.
 
Well, you benefited from the genocide of native Americans and slavery. What does that make you? I hope that, by the same logic, you're ready to start forking up your share of back-wages to the descendants of slaves, compensation for land lost by native Americans, and to move off the land which you currently occupy.

What does this have to do with what Sandusky did and what Penn State did to cover it up? :confused:
 
Nobody here is making that claim.

Actually, that is exactly what Cutlass said. That quote was taken directly from his post.


The claim is that there is an institutional mindset to cover up and prevent criminal prosecution of an employee who was known to be a child rapist.

Where's the impasse?

That there is an institutional mindset to cover up and prevent criminal prosecution of an employee who was known to be a child rapist.

To begin with, the 1998 case was not a "known-to-be", as detectives and at least one judge were aware of the accusations and chose to do nothing. So, there were accusations, not "known-to-be's". So-called Penn State Police are not just rent-a-cops. They are essentially a municipal police department, with the same authority as any other cop. They are not answerable to the PSU administration. They DID NOTHING.

In the second place, the conduct of three administration officials out of hundreds does not qualify as an institutional action. An institutional action is a matter of policy. The Penn State policy is explicitly clear, in this matter. Post-1998 cases should have been referred to law enforcement and child protective services. The four primary individuals involved in this case chose not to carry out policy. ANYONE can do that. Punishing the whole university won't change policy, because the policy is right and it won't change the fact that people can ignore policy. What you need to do is punish people who ignore policy. None of these people are employed by Penn State, anymore.

Don't you agree that this is inexcusable?

If it were true.


If this weren't about the head of the department in charge of a game involved with throwing balls at 'one the leading US research institutions' rather than a religious sleep-away camp would you feel the same way? I strongly doubt it.

In the case of the Catholic Church, it was institutional policy to cover up and prevent criminal prosecution of an employee who was known to be a child rapist.

In the case of a theoretical religious organization; It would depend on whether it was actually institutional policy or not. If, for instance, it was the Vatican's policy that child rapists be reported to law enforcement, immediately, and the Pope and two Cardinals protected a Bishop that raped children, then I would expect them to be fired and prosecuted. I wouldn't go after the entire church, because it is clearly not institutional policy to cover these things up. If they didn't get rid of these people, then it becomes institutional policy, in effect, regardless of how it actually reads.

In Penn State's case, you have four high officials who broke with policy. When this was found to be true, well before the Freeh report, they were immediately fired. Currently, the university, without a court order, is forking over millions of dollars and making institutional changes to prevent this kind of thing from ever happening, again. No one is arguing, with the exception to the football program and the Paterno statue, that what the current administration is doing to address this issue is appropriate.

In the case of the football program, the only single person who knew anything about Sandusky was Joe Paterno. He is gone. None of the other senior staff employed in the program were even around when these events occurred. So, there is very little point to ending the program voluntarily. You'd be laying off people who had nothing to do with it and taking sports away from students who had nothing to do with it. Football is/was not the problem. It wasn't because of football that this cover-up happened.

In the case of the statue, there is a real issue of just how Mr. Freeh came to his conclusion about Joe Paterno. They keep talking about emails, but Paterno didn't use emails, so the administration is examining the report and the evidence to find out exactly what it was that lead Mr. Freeh to determine that Paterno did anything other than his job. Whatever the case, I suspect that statue is coming down soon, but it isn't like storming Baghdad. You can't just start tearing things down.
 
Penn State won't get shut down from any applied penalties. Just paranoia. The same paranoia that led to sandusky being covered up in the first place. Jopa thought sandusky should be treated lightly for fear of university damage. And now your telling us the same. Its the same. Always the same. Its a low key, low change county here. And thats the problem. Death penalty will stir up people and them talking about improvements rather than just going back to talking about their jobs and football games, their Joe hero and their beer.


Harsh penalties create a big pyscological effect. Human brains naturally respond to bigger things than small. The penalty must be big visable. The image of Paterno's a hero who represents state college's greatness is already everywhere on merchandise, libraries. Student talk. Now we need a different image. A image of a major pennstate failure. So that people will stay focused on fixing the failure. And not get distracted and drifit off. A empty beaver stadium for a year will provide that image.


The scandal is not just a result of a few people at the top. Its a culture problem. A culture that rioted over pateno's firing. Not over Sandusky's actions. A culture that during recent trustee elections was more interested in avenging paterno than anything else. A culture that recently tried to name yet another thing after paterno. Replacing the name of another historical person for paterno. "Fraser street" for "paterno way"

But by the 0s he reached his 80s. A time of big risk of mental enfeeblement but still the culture didn't riot over his continued presence. They rioted over his firing. Even though by the time of the firing he was about to retire anyway. Culture problem. Happens all throughout history.
 
Well, you benefited from the genocide of native Americans and slavery. What does that make you? I hope that, by the same logic, you're ready to start forking up your share of back-wages to the descendants of slaves, compensation for land lost by native Americans, and to move off the land which you currently occupy.

Actually its not the "same logic". Im not suggesting that you personally as a member of Penn St's student body pay any cash. Im suggesting the school does, and I wouldnt be opposed to the federal government giving something for the native americans financially. If the school actually raises your tuition they are just proving their sleaziness, they have plenty of endowment to cover any lawsuits without you having to pay up more. If they are suggesting otherwise they are just trying to rev up support from their students by threatening their wallets.
 
Penn State won't get shut down from any applied penalties. Just paranoia. The same paranoia that led to sandusky being covered up in the first place. Jopa thought sandusky should be treated lightly for fear of university damage. And now your telling us the same. Its the same. Always the same. Its a low key, low change county here. And thats the problem. Death penalty will stir up people and them talking about improvements rather than just going back to talking about their jobs and football games, their Joe hero and their beer.

Actually no. I never said any of that. I've stated (not here) that Sandusky should be put to death for his crimes. I've also said that Penn State should have some form of direct state oversight and supervision. I've also said that all proceeds from sports, less expenses, should be forfeited. I support prosecuting those who covered it up. I support taking Joe Paterno's statue down and civil suit(s) against his estate.

What I don't support is shutting down atheltics, partly due to the fact that revenues generated could benefit children in crisis, but also because football wasn't the problem. All the other staff and students, other than Joe Paterno, had nothing to do with this. Taking football away only hurts these people. It adds no value to justice whatsoever. Penn State's image cannot be preserved by having football, this year. But, innocent staff and students WILL be hurt.


Harsh penalties create a big pyscological effect. Human brains naturally respond to bigger things than small. The penalty must be big visable. The image of Paterno's a hero who represents state college's greatness is already everywhere on merchandise, libraries. Student talk. Now we need a different image. A image of a major pennstate failure. So that people will stay focused on fixing the failure. And not get distracted and drifit off. A empty beaver stadium for a year will provide that image.

An empty Beaver stadium will do nothing of the sort. It will only cost innocent people their jobs, innocent students their college football career, and children's causes millions of dollars in potential revenues. Like it or not, no matter what happens, this will be forgotten by most people within a few years.


The scandal is not just a result of a few people at the top. Its a culture problem. A culture that rioted over pateno's firing. Not over Sandusky's actions. A culture that during recent trustee elections was more interested in avenging paterno than anything else. A culture that recently tried to name yet another thing after paterno. Replacing the name of another historical person for paterno. "Fraser street" for "paterno way"

But by the 0s he reached his 80s. A time of big risk of mental enfeeblement but still the culture didn't riot over his continued presence. They rioted over his firing. Even though by the time of the firing he was about to retire anyway. Culture problem. Happens all throughout history.

They're college students and only several hundred of more than 80,000. That isn't a culture. Its a bunch of young people acting out, because they can't believe that someone they trusted let them down. That is all over now. Nobody is rioting now. Paterno's few supporters are mostly silent. The statue will come down shortly and along with it, probably all traces of his existence. You're coloring a whole university and its students based on the actions of less than 1 percent, the majority of whom are barely out of high school. But, regardless, we've now exposed the fact that you don't want to shut down football because of Sandusky. Now, we know you just want revenge against children for acting emotional and getting rowdy.

You're simply naive if you think football is the cause of their lunacy. Shutting it down won't change the nature of children.
 
So, a bar down a few blocks got shut down a few months back because the owner/manager was dealing cocaine and selling alcohol to children.

In retrospect, it's rather unfair to his employees and patrons that they should be denied employment and service just because of the actions of someone else.

Seems to me that man shouldn't have gone to jail, it's just collective punishment.
 
Confused? Or intentionally obtuse?

So, you have no answer as to how it relates, since....it doesnt. I figured as much.

Personally, I think your're over-hyping how all this is going to wind up. Is it going to cost the school a lot of money? Yes, but it should. Will the school survive it? Yes, and it should.

And I disagree that football wasnt the problem. It absolutely was in the aspect that their football heritage had to be protected from the scandal that this would result in if it were made public. Paterno's huge success in their football program is a big part of what led them to try and cover the incident up in the first place.

You're simply naive if you think football is the cause of their lunacy. Shutting it down won't change the nature of children.

You are forgetting that it would also suffice to send a strong message to every other college in the NCAA. That is not totally without merit.
 
So, a bar down a few blocks got shut down a few months back because the owner/manager was dealing cocaine and selling alcohol to children.

In retrospect, it's rather unfair to his employees and patrons that they should be denied employment and service just because of the actions of someone else.

Seems to me that man shouldn't have gone to jail, it's just collective punishment.

Yea, because the owner of a privaely-owned estbalishment that exists soley for the purpose of dispensing a controlled substance to a mostly abusive population, and a handful of officials of a public institution that exists to educate the people of Pennsylvania (which PSU is a top-ranking school) is the same thing. Nevertheless, in a generic theoretical case, I would still say yes...sort of.

The man should be imprisoned and the state should take over management of the establishment pending a sheriff's sale. There are numerous precedents for this, not the least of which would be evident if you consider the recession of 2009. Jobs and commerce is preserved and justice is served.
 
So, you have no answer as to how it relates, since....it doesnt. I figured as much.

Yawn! I'm not doing your thinking for you.


Personally, I think your're over-hyping how all this is going to wind up. Is it going to cost the school a lot of money? Yes, but it should. Will the school survive it? Yes, and it should.

I am not overhyping how it WILL turn out. I am accurately addressing how many people WANT this to turn out. I was worried that legal possibility would combine with public pressure to make much of it happen. I am now told by a source that about the only thing that is going to happen is that the athletic programs will be sanctioned.

EDIT: I apparently misunderstood the phone conversation. The maximum penalty that the NCAA is settling on is a five-year probation, essentially playing wait-and-see.

Despite what they've said publicly, the NCAA has taken the so-called "death penalty" off the table, even before the Freeh report. So that issue is settled, for me.

And I disagree that football wasnt the problem. It absolutely was in the aspect that their football heritage had to be protected from the scandal that this would result in if it were made public. Paterno's huge success in their football program is a big part of what led them to try and cover the incident up in the first place.

You have a point there, though I don't think that, that is the entire reason nor that this would not have happened otherwise.


You are forgetting that it would also suffice to send a strong message to every other college in the NCAA. That is not totally without merit.

We agree in principle. I think its a better idea to penalize them by taaking all of the revenue generated by athletics and donating it to charity or whatever. It saves job, football careers, and still sends that message.
 
The man should be imprisoned and the state should take over management of the establishment pending a sheriff's sale. There are numerous precedents for this, not the least of which would be evident if you consider the recession of 2009. Jobs and commerce is preserved and justice is served.
Yes, but will the new owner operate the business as efficiently? And will the state?

Why are you so willing to put other people's livelihoods on the line?
 
Yes, but will the new owner operate the business as efficiently? And will the state?

In the case of the new owner, that is really a matter for the new owner. History shows that when the state takes over (at least in the US), businesses survive.

Why are you so willing to put other people's livelihoods on the line?

As opposed to what? Closing the business, having them laid off, and collecting unemployment for six months? I think they'd appreciate the chance to keep their jobs, rather than the certainty that they'd lose them.
 
As opposed to what? Closing the business, having them laid off, and collecting unemployment for six months? I think they'd appreciate the chance to keep their jobs, rather than the certainty that they'd lose them.
Why not just let the guy go. Arresting him clearly is collective punishment.
 
You're trying your hardest to make a tenuous connection here and I commend you for it, but this line of conversation has been used up.
 
So fine, if you don't have a problem with other people facing consequences for associating with criminals, let's get to the real heart of the matter.

Why are you special?
 
So fine, if you don't have a problem with other people facing consequences for associating with criminals, let's get to the real heart of the matter.

Why are you special?


I am for the public interest. Shutting down an establishment or institution and causing good people to lose jobs for no apparent gain is NOT in the public interest. In the case of your fictitious bar, there is a slight risk for the employees, but they are not above what would otherwise be normal had the owner not been arrested and the bar sold. The risk to their jobs does not noticeably increase. Your argument is extremely thin. The owner ought to be arrested (public interest) and the establishment should be sold. Graham Spanier, et al should be put in prison, but the institution should remain open, including football. It is in the public interest to keep those jobs (hundreds of them) and to have the benefits of that revenue, locally. The revenues that the school takes in should be forfeit.

And there is an extreme difference between associating with persons whom you know are criminals and those whose criminal nature you are unaware of. If unknowingly associating yourself with a criminal were punishable, then we'd all be in prison.
 
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