ParkCungHee
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This thread has already gone and been there.
Outside Agitators!! Think YOu Can Ruin Our Happy Valley!
- Thread starter Slobadog
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Ailedhoo
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Yup it has.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Well, the answer to that is obvious. Did Penn State gain financially and in other ways by covering this up the way they did?
The answer is obviously yes. Sure, its not the kids fault, anymore than its not childrens fault when their parents commit felonys; but that doesnt mean we shouldnt still punish those guilty of it.
If I were going to Penn State, i'd simply try to find a different college to attend, if not locally, then perhaps online.
Slobadog
King
This scandal occured because of a desire to prevent damage to PennState. Now people are telling us that we still must be careful to not damege PennState.
No matter what its always about protecting PennState.
The janitor did not report the scandal due to fears about possible job loss.
JohnRM doesn't want penalties on PSU due to fears about possible college membership loss.
Notice its always about Pennstate and them. But its that very culture that made child molestation seem a affordable trade off. Unless that culture is changed more of these corruptions will occur. Excessive self and organizational protection must be viewed as self and organizational damaging. The harshness of penalty is not about revenge but rather culture change.
No matter what its always about protecting PennState.
The janitor did not report the scandal due to fears about possible job loss.
JohnRM doesn't want penalties on PSU due to fears about possible college membership loss.
Notice its always about Pennstate and them. But its that very culture that made child molestation seem a affordable trade off. Unless that culture is changed more of these corruptions will occur. Excessive self and organizational protection must be viewed as self and organizational damaging. The harshness of penalty is not about revenge but rather culture change.
kramerfan86
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This is why Penn St needs to get penalized. Even after the scandal was public and it was known Paterno didnt do anything to really stop it, they still tossed 5 million dollars at him.
JohnRM
Don't make me destroy you
No, that is in fact NOT what I am saying.
I am saying that students should still have access to FAFSA. I am saying that the football players should still be allowed to play football. I am saying that high school kids should still be able to obtain an athletic scholarship to got to college. I am saying that Penn State should stay open, as a school. Beyond that, I don't care.
The individuals involved should be prosecuted.
PSU should be sanctioned, in some way, with regard to revenues from football.
There should be some direct form of state oversight for the university system for a while.
There should be some compensation paid to the victims, but not tens of millions of dollars.
Penn State is already damaged, because of this. That can't be helped, no matter what happens. But great care needs to be taken to ensure that the justice doesn't come at the expense of other children. The majority of the suggestions and possible outcomes I've heard so far doesn't hurt the decision-makers who let this happen. When you say "damage to Penn State", you're saying damage to the kids that go there.
Let's be clear about something. A choice needs to be made. Is Penn State going to stay open as a school? Are we going to allow thousands of staff members who had nothing to do with this, keep their jobs? We going to let tens of thousands of kids to keep going to college? Or are we going to shut down the Pennsylvania State University system, because of this, and damage our public education system?
If you're going to keep the school open, prosecute those who were involved. Remove them from their jobs. Refill those ranks. Install direct oversight by the state government. Let these kids go to school. Let people like me have a shot at a better life. Penn State is not some private school that nobody will miss and the bottom line is that if fewer kids go to Penn State, next year, its because fewer kids are going to college, next year. PERIOD. Not everybody can just up and leave where they live and run off to somewhere else. We need our local campuses.
There definitely needs to be some kind of restitution for this. I've never said otherwise. What I take issue with is the fact that the students and staff are getting lumped in with the handful of people responsible for this, and we're expected to pay the price. It would be like--I don't know--if 19 out of 20 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabians and the attacks had originated from Afghanistan, and we decided to attack Iraq, for some reason. Students shouldn't be punished for what Graham Spanier and Joe Paterno did or did not do.
You're still missing the point here:
The institution appears to be responsible for sheltering a child rapist to protect its own image.
The penalty must be strong enough so that the decision-makers at every other institution will get the message loud and clear: Your image is worth far less than the consequences of turning a blind eye to crimes like this.
Sorry that you personally feel like a victim here, but you really aren't. At best the student body is collateral damage.
You should try to channel your frustration at the areas responsible - the football program itself, the athletic department that prioritizes it, the administration that oversees it all, and perhaps that Board.
Calling those children who were victimized by a monster (and protected & enabled by his bosses
) "lottery winners" doesn't earn you any sympathy.
The institution appears to be responsible for sheltering a child rapist to protect its own image.
The penalty must be strong enough so that the decision-makers at every other institution will get the message loud and clear: Your image is worth far less than the consequences of turning a blind eye to crimes like this.
Sorry that you personally feel like a victim here, but you really aren't. At best the student body is collateral damage.
You should try to channel your frustration at the areas responsible - the football program itself, the athletic department that prioritizes it, the administration that oversees it all, and perhaps that Board.
Calling those children who were victimized by a monster (and protected & enabled by his bosses
) "lottery winners" doesn't earn you any sympathy.
holy king
Deity
NickyJ
Retired Narrator
On the contrary.
JohnRM
Don't make me destroy you
And you apparently don't think that putting the men responsible for this, in prison, is a penalty or strong enough to send that message. Well, we're at an impasse, there.
If it turns out that I can't finish school, and I'm stuck with tens of thousands of dollars worth of loans for a degree I didn't get, then yes, I am a victim.
The football program isn't responsible. A few men were responsible. And remember that the football program includes students. These are students that didn't do anything wrong. Those responsible in the administration were fired and will likely be prosecuted. The board isn't guilty of anything, because if their rules had been followed, law enforcement and child welfare services would have been involved immediately.
Calling those children who were victimized by a monster (and protected & enabled by his bosses
I don't care. Nobody has any sympathy for any of us, anyway. All we get is dirty looks or verbally assaulted on a daily basis. We get our cars vandalized. Penn State is more than just the administration or Joe Paterno or football. Penn State doesn't just produce football players. Our school produces some of the best professionals in the world. It is one of the best science and engineering colleges in the country.
Frankly, I'm sick of the solution to every wrong in this country being to sue anyone you can and collect tens of millions. Throwing money at these kids isn't going fix anything. That isn't justice, especially when the result is that it hurts perhaps thousand of other kids. Justice is putting the men responsible in prison. Justice is changing the way things work so that it never happens, again. Justice is making sure that medical bills and therapy bills are paid. Justice isn't making them filthy frickin' rich.
Piling money on them isn't justice, but that's exactly what everyone treats it as. They treat trauma and tragedy as a lottery. So, if you want to get mad at someone for the whole "lottery" thing then get mad at the people who really see it that way. Don't get mad at me for pointing out that reality.
I would suspect that anyone attending Penn State at this point is trying to position themselves to win the lottery.
kramerfan86
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So your school should get filthy rich off propagating a lie, but these guys who actually suffered shouldnt get any of your near 2 billion dollar endowment, yea that sound practical.
While I obviously disagree with the most "passionate" statements JohnRM made I think he raised some valid points:
1- Why punish the institution? If some individuals commited crimes, and others were criminally negligent, by all means punish them. That's what will stop other individuals from being negligent. I don't see how punishing an institutions (and no, corporations and colleges are not the same) achieves any good. Send the individuals to jail, have them pay heavy fines, but don't punish a fundamentally good institution (a state college). By doing that you would indeed be punishing innocent people, and for no gain whatsoever.
2- This is trickier, and I don't have a "right" solution, but the US really needs to rethink it's policy of doing justice by making the victims of some crime millionaires. Of course I am not saying that being raped and then awarded millions is good deal. It isn't. But that's not my concept of justice either. I think the criminals should be heavily punished for their crimes, and the victims should have medical bills and etc. paid (and if the crime resulted in physical or psychological damange that limits their ability to work normally they should be appropriately compensated as well), but I don't see how handing them millions qualifies as justice. If a loved one was a victim of a Sandusky type I'd be campaigning for having him locked up for life (and those who enabled him also punished), not for millions of dollars in compensation.
1- Why punish the institution? If some individuals commited crimes, and others were criminally negligent, by all means punish them. That's what will stop other individuals from being negligent. I don't see how punishing an institutions (and no, corporations and colleges are not the same) achieves any good. Send the individuals to jail, have them pay heavy fines, but don't punish a fundamentally good institution (a state college). By doing that you would indeed be punishing innocent people, and for no gain whatsoever.
2- This is trickier, and I don't have a "right" solution, but the US really needs to rethink it's policy of doing justice by making the victims of some crime millionaires. Of course I am not saying that being raped and then awarded millions is good deal. It isn't. But that's not my concept of justice either. I think the criminals should be heavily punished for their crimes, and the victims should have medical bills and etc. paid (and if the crime resulted in physical or psychological damange that limits their ability to work normally they should be appropriately compensated as well), but I don't see how handing them millions qualifies as justice. If a loved one was a victim of a Sandusky type I'd be campaigning for having him locked up for life (and those who enabled him also punished), not for millions of dollars in compensation.
The point of the report was that the university was institutionally flawed and that it permitted and fostered the environment in which Sandusky could commit his crimes.
Institutions are people too.
ParkCungHee
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This is why this scandal is so big. It wasn't like the coach was doing this and the university just now found out. At an extremely broad institutional level, the decision was made to cover it up in order to not damage the universities reputation, and prevent students from enrolling there, and yes, losing football games.
This effected people from the highest level of administration to the Janitors. To the extent that Penn State organization can be collectively responsible, it is.
Look, institutions have free speech rights, but not criminal liability.
If indeed as PCH said the criminal negligence was so widespread that it's impossible to identify all the people who did wrong then I can this point. Otherwise I still feel that the individuals who did wrong should be punished, but the institution preserved.
And even if indeed guilt was very widespread, I think it makes more sense to reform the university than "punish" it. Change the whole staff if need be, but I really don't see how making a state college poorer helps anyone.
kramerfan86
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The university collectively benefited from the lie, why exactly should it not be collectively punished? Despite your claims to the contrary, its really no different than punishing a business for wrong doing.
JohnRM said:
I don't think people are saying that simply awarding 6-figure damages on the victims is justice (that would hardly dent the finances, of course). Justice would be far more severe than a simple monetary fine. But that's going to be worked out eventually, I'm sure.
I'm not mad at you for pointing out that some people seem to think these kids won the lottery (though you're the only one I've seen say that!) - I'm suggesting that you get a little perspective on this. But I'll let it go. Vent all you want, I won't badger you any longer.
1: The institution must be penalized because it seems (at least based on what we're hearing in the press) that the institutional personality itself contributed to this. If it were simply a matter of a bad actor or two then I'd agree with you completely. But in this case, because the bad actors were at the heart of the football program, and because the institution prioritized the football program so much, the potential embarrassment to the school over-rode the welfare concerns of children. Imagine if this weren't an assistant coach (who still had privileges at the school even though he had retired!) but an assistant professor in the Math department. We wouldn't be having this conversation.
2. I'm sure Jolly Roger or someone more familiar with the legal system in the US can explain better, but in the USA there is something called 'making the person whole'. If I get hit by a car and need X-Rays, physical therapy, etc, of course those direct medical bills will be payed by the insurance company. But I like to commute to work by bike. I can't do that anymore, since I no longer have full mobility in my hip. I can't get up and down stairs like I used to, and I can't lift & carry nearly as much as I did. So I'm no longer employable in the same way, leaving the apartment and walking around are much more difficult, I can't engage in many of the recreational activities I used to. The idea behind composition above and beyond the medical bills is that I am no longer the whole person I was, and the money is a gesture to acknowledge that. At least, that's how my brother explained it to me..
That said, I agree that there are areas where the US is too litigious. Institutions sheltering and covering up child rape isn't one of them.
