Panetta: So far, DADT A "Non-Event"

[Flying Pig]

FP, that was also the case under DADT. Part of the reason why that law was enacted was to also try and quell violence and investigations regardint the issue.

True, but if Pte Jones was found to be gay under the old system, it was viewed as a 'crime' (or at least a deficiency) which meant that he should be sent out of the Army, whereas nowadays the chain of command's reaction should only be 'lay off my soldier'.

 

[MobBoss]

True, but if Pte Jones was found to be gay under the old system, it was viewed as a 'crime' (or at least a deficiency) which meant that he should be sent out of the Army, whereas nowadays the chain of command's reaction should only be 'lay off my soldier'.

Perhaps you are misinformed. It was never considered a 'crime' under DADT. The vast majority of discharges for homosexuality were administrative only, not using military justice via the UCMJ; unless other types of misconduct were involved and added as additional charges.

 

[LucyDuke]

Considering the Islamic terrorists want to destroy our nation because of it's lack of moral values and decadence, is this really a good ting? I think us adopting Islamic values and morals would prevent future terrorist attacks, and it's something we should consider.

That's called "the terrorists winning".

Although it turns out the guy was actually gay, he was just in the closet. He was actually our roommate for a while. Yes, I had a gay roommate. We never knew for sure he was gay until he got out of the navy, and he left a gay porn video in his room when he moved out. Although the fact he drove a purple car should have been a dead giveaway. He mainly wanted to get out because he couldn't handle it (the workload of the nuclear program that is), not because he was gay or was receiving any threats or whatnot.

You had a gay roommate and you didn't learn a goddamn thing about gay people. Good for youuuuuu.

 

[Arakhor]

A discriminatory law with a beneficial side-effect is still a discriminatory law, though.

 

[Kozmos]

The Sacred Band of Thebes is not a very good model for the modern United States Army.

Also, it was "particularly fierce" (read: "particularly fierce" is not an accurate description of their relevance on the battlefield even in tactical terms) for like, three decades, if that.

And if you're thinking of the Spartans, you're wrong.

Oh I didn't bring it out as a serious argument. I just wanted to twist some panties. Evidently it worked.

 

[JollyRoger]

Budge cutbacks and downsizing. Its going to be like the early 90s after the first Gulf War all over again.

Great news, because the downsized military kicked ass in its mid-to-late 90's war. The bloated military of the past decade or so has struggled against lightweight foes.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Perhaps you are misinformed. It was never considered a 'crime' under DADT. The vast majority of discharges for homosexuality were administrative only, not using military justice via the UCMJ; unless other types of misconduct were involved and added as additional charges.

Yes, it was a kinder, gentler persecution of gays where they then went looking for other excuses to completely ruin their lives outside the military. That is, after destroying the careers of thousands of brave patriots who devoted their lives to serving their country.

Air Force Hero Forced to Choose: Admit You're Gay or Accept Rape Charge

BOISE, Idaho (AP) On April 3, 2003, Air Force Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach flew in an F-15E toward an Iraqi ambush site about a mile from U.S. Army troops advancing on Baghdad airport.

Fehrenbach faced anti-aircraft fire, surface-to-air missiles and a mechanical problem on his wingman's plane. Still, the weapons systems officer aboard the plane helped destroy the enemy position and helped clear the way for the Army to take the airport that night. For his heroism, the Notre Dame grad won an Air Medal with a valor device, one of his nine Air Medals.

Five years later, Fehrenbach confronted a crisis in a very different setting. A Boise police detective sat across a conference table questioning him about an alleged crime.

Fehrenbach, stationed at Mountain Home Air Force Base, was in a Catch-22. To clear himself of the claim he'd raped a man, Fehrenbach could tell police his side of the story. But admitting he'd had consensual sex could get him kicked out of the Air Force he loved after 18 years.

Fehrenbach asked Detective Mark Vucinich whether his employer had a right to see his statement. Yes, replied Vucinich.

Fehrenbach then told the detective he had sex with Cameron Shaner on May 12, 2008. He'd met Shaner, 30, on a gay Web site and invited him to his southeast Boise home.

Fehrenbach was soon cleared by police and the Ada County prosecutor's office. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations subsequently found no violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. AFOSI concluded that Fehrenbach and Shaner had consensual sex, and that Shaner was an "unreliable source of information."

But the Air Force wasn't done: Fehrenbach's admission he'd had gay sex was a violation of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law.

"Because of the criminal allegation, Victor confirmed the fact he was gay," said Emily Hecht, a lawyer for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Fund. "That's all the Air Force needed. Had his accuser been a woman, he'd have gone back to work with no further issue."

Fehrenbach, 40, was notified last year that he would be discharged, costing him a $46,000 annual pension and the dignity of retiring on his own terms, as his Air Force parents both had. If discharged early, he'll get an $80,000 lump sum.

At first, he planned to go quietly with an honorable discharge. Shaner, angry that there would be no prosecution, wouldn't go away and was pressing the Air Force for a dishonorable discharge.

But the prospect of President Barack Obama fulfilling a campaign promise to repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," prompted Fehrenbach to fight. In April, a board of five officers recommended an honorable discharge. Fehrenbach's goal was to continue to serve. With two more years, he'd reach 20 years and qualify for full retirement.

In mid-May, Fehrenbach finally revealed to his family that he was gay. A few days later, on May 19, he appeared on "The Rachel Maddow Show" on MSNBC. Since that night, Fehrenbach has become a symbol of injustice for those who condemn the military's expulsion of gay servicemen and women.

Stories on Fehrenbach have focused on a stellar career: the nine Air Medals; five Commendation Medals; 2,180 hours of flight time, including patrolling Washington, D.C., after 9/11; and 400 hours in combat over Iraq, Afghanistan and Kosovo.

"Yeah, but he got those medals before he was gay," observed comedian Stephen Colbert.

Air Force Times editorialized on Fehrenbach's discharge: "That may be the law. But it's not justice."

The case even made "News of the Weird," which noted the wasted investment in training Fehrenbach, estimated by the weapons systems officer at $25 million.

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" says discharging personnel known to be gay is necessary to maintain "high morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion." Fehrenbach says that's a non-issue.

"I have been going to work every day and doing my duty with absolutely no impact on morale, discipline and good order," he said in his first TV appearance. Among about 4,000 people assigned to Mountain Home, Fehrenbach said, "about 10 people on the entire base even knew about my case up until this very moment."

Is this a great country, or what?

 

[MobBoss]

Great news, because the downsized military kicked ass in its mid-to-late 90's war. The bloated military of the past decade or so has struggled against lightweight foes.

There wasnt a war in the mid to lat 90s. Sorry.

Yes, it was a kinder, gentler persecution of gays where they then went looking for other excuses to completely ruin their lives outside the military after destroying the careers of thousands of brave patriots who devoted their lives to serving their country.

Completely ruin their lives? Please. Seriously, how much more unsupported rhetoric could you possibly spout?

 

[JollyRoger]

There wasnt a war in the mid to lat 90s. Sorry.

"You can support the troops but not the president."
---Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
---Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
---Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
---Sen Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
---Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain the y have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
---Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
---Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
-Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
-Governor George W Bush (R-TX)
.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Completely ruin their lives? Please. Seriously, how much more unsupported rhetoric could you possibly spout?

What do you think a dishonorable discharge, trumped-up or not, on top of a DADT persecution does to most victims? What do you think depriving an actual hero of his pension a year before he can retire does?

And I'm still waiting for you to provide any actual reliable source of your own "unsupported rhetoric" you continue to allege in this thread, as I do.

 

[say1988]

MobBoss, if DADT was irrelevant with regards to actual homosexuals, then why do you care that it was removed? Shouldn't that be a non-issue? Hell, it should be a good thing if it was only every used as an excuse for people to get out of their commitments to teh military, now they have to fulfill their commitment or face teh consequences.

 

[MobBoss]

What do you think a dishonorable discharge, trumped-up or not, on top of a DADT persecution does to most victims? What do you think depriving an actual hero of his pension a year before he can retire does?

Form, this is from your own link:

Shaner, angry that there would be no prosecution, wouldn't go away and was pressing the Air Force for a dishonorable discharge.

The individual himself was facing an honorable discharge, but choose instead to get a DD in order to make some kind of point. Again, as I have pointed out again and again, there is a voluntary element to this.

I suggest that maybe your read your links fully prior to offering them as evidence. This one doesnt help you at all.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Does anybody still think any of that will still happen? That anybody who would have never voted for Obama in the first place has now changed their minds due to the repeal of DADT?

Silly Form, changing one's mind is losing at the game of debate. We're in the business of patting ourselves on the back about our kick-ass argument which knocked 'it' out of the park.

Gosh, that was really insightful of me. Well done Ziggy! Any clever comments to follow that astute observation?

You can knock it out of the park and still lose the game?

Oh you!

 

[Arakhor]

The individual himself was facing an honorable discharge, but choose instead to get a DD in order to make some kind of point. Again, as I have pointed out again and again, there is a voluntary element to this.

I suggest that maybe your read your links fully prior to offering them as evidence. This one doesnt help you at all.

Except that Shaner was the one trying to stitch him, just two years away from a full retirement package, so criticising others for not reading properly is probably not in your best interests right now. I fail to see what is remotely fair about this situation, but I'm only a woolly British liberal after all.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Indeed. Fehrenbach doesn't even sound like Shaner. This was no attempt for gays to make the US military look bad, as Mobboss continues to insinuate by trying to twist what actually happened into something entirely different.

Not only wasn't this a "voluntary" DADT to get out of serving, there were no other dishonorable discharge charges against him, trumped-up or not. In other words, this is one of the thousands of cases Mobboss earlier insinuated don't even exist based on his own vast personal experience in this matter!

And I see Mobboss still hasn't bothered to respond to Say1988's post that pokes another huge hole in his "logic" that I also pointed out earlier. If there was no ongoing witch hunt against gays and women who wouldn't have sex against their wills, there would be no need for DADT by those who have been conducting it. And they certainly wouldn't now be trying to resurrect it if we get another Republican president. This vast persecution of gays which directly affected over 12,000 honorable soldiers serving their country never would have happened under a law that was supposed to protect them from just this sort of blatant discrimination.

While there may have been a handful of gays who decided to use DADT to get out of the military, they were apparently the exception instead of the rule. There are over 12,000 documented cases at Servicemembers Legal Defense Network where just the opposite occurred. By his own earlier statement there were supposedly less DADT cases than that in the entire period, so the number of voluntary cases can't possibly be that large. These honorable soldiers wanted to serve their country, but they were not allowed to do so due to rampant homophobia on the part of many others.

But it certainly wouldn't surprise me in the least that the paperwork may have been deliberately doctored to make it look like it was voluntary on their part in many cases. It also wouldn't be much of a surprise that when they wouldn't agree to signing such discharges, other charges were brought against them. After all, DADT was actually supposed to make it illegal for the US military to continue to conduct these witch hunts by making it illegal to even ask, which many apparently continued to do according to the statements like the one I posted earlier.

DADT wasn't finally repealed because it was always a "non-event", as Mobboss continues to insinuate. It was finally repealed because it is another shameful and reprehensible event in a long history of blatant discrimination dating back to a segregated military, which was even used to force heterosexual women to have sex against their will. Hopefully, this entire matter will eventually be investigated and those responsible will be held accountable for their acts. But I'm certainly not holding my breath.

 

[MobBoss]

There wont be any investigation, because as I pointed out, what was done was under the law as written, and a valid part of military regulation.

I've given plenty of links and proof to back up what i've said. And of everyone here, i'm the only one who's career was actually involved in a lot of this. I've told the truth about my experience in dealing with this issue. If that upsets you.../oh well.

This wasnt some 'vast' conspiracy, and a handful of valid examples arent the rule. There were no 'witch hunts' in the vast majority of these cases, and honorable discharges were given in a large majority of cases. And as far as I know, those that received honorable discharges can indeed apply to be returned to service if they wish to apply for that.

Bottom line, being discharged for homosexuality was one of the most rare discharges the military processed, and it was declining even more and more in the last decade. There simply wasnt what many here would make it seem.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

May be. But wouldn't one be one too many?

 

[MobBoss]

May be. But wouldn't one be one too many?

No, because exceptions happen. Criticism would be valid if the exception proved the rule, but in this case its the opposite. I've already given all the data needed to verify that there simply werent widespread witchhunts, and grand conspiracy to systematically hunt down and eliminate homosexuals from the military.

I mean, really, if that were indeed the case, wouldnt the numbers have gone up over time instead of gotten smaller?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

My point was if being discharged for homosexuality is a bad thing, it shouldn't happen, even if it just happened once. Not commenting on the severity or claims of conspiracy theories.

If this rule caused bad things, it's a good thing it's repealed. We all should agree on that shouldn't we?

 

[JollyRoger]

Well now many's fantasies about shower ogling are disrupted by thoughts about who is now lying about it rather than simply with complying with government regulation. It makes the military softer.