Petition To Have King Leonidas Added To Civ 7 As A Playable Leader.

Would you like to see King Leonidas added to the roster of playable leaders in Civ 7?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 45 75.0%

  • Total voters
    60

Albertan Civfanatic

Albertan Nationalist
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
260
Location
Nation of Alberta
I would like to see King Leonidas added as a playable leader for Civ 7. When I consider the fact that Xerxes is in the game, and that Leonidas and Xerxes both fought/were at Thermopylae, I consider these two men being in the game as an incredible theme and rivalry that will add to the aura and greatness of 7.
 
If I had my druthers not a single civ or leader in the game would be "rivals." I think it makes the world feel much smaller and coincidental than it actually is.

But obviously Tomyris begs to differ and oh crap here she comes...
 
I would like to see King Leonidas added as a playable leader for Civ 7. When I consider the fact that Xerxes is in the game, and that Leonidas and Xerxes both fought/were at Thermopylae, I consider these two men being in the game as an incredible theme and rivalry that will add to the aura and greatness of 7.
Yeah that'd be pretty cool.

Playing on historic rivalries is a good way to generate engaging content.

+1
 
It's an interesting idea, but I feel that a variety of leaders spread out farther over time provides better historical representation than producing a leader simply because they existed in opposition to one of their contemporaries who made it into the game first.
 
We have enough warmongers and are already inevitably getting Alexander; any other Greek leader we get should be diplomatic/culture focused.
 
For as moving a story as Thermopylae is, it was a defeat, a sacrifice. Is there something noble in a king dying with his troops to buy his countrymen time to escape? Yes, absolutely.

But I don't know if "heroic sacrifice" is a feat worth rewarding with Leader status when we have world conquerors, revolutionary intellectuals, and globe-trotting explorers as our current roster. He'd just feel a little out of place.

I wouldn't mind seeing him eventually. But we should definitely get Alexander and a cultural Greek leader first. Solon would be nice to see.

If its noble sacrifices you're after, Constantine XI (the last Byzantine emperor) wouldn't be a bad pick. He could fulfill the rivalry aspect when the Ottomans and an Ottoman leader inevitably get added, and didn't seem to be a half-bad emperor either.
 
+300 votes! I believe it's time for Leonidas to appear in Sid Meier's Civilization as a leader. He deserves it more than ever this time. In the past not only he was just a Great General, but Xerxes is already a leader in Civilization VII, which will make for an interesting historical interaction, although the two probably never had a conversation with each other in real life. If a Persian Wars scenario ever gets made, then I can see Leonidas being perfect for it.

It is true that his wife Gorgo has appeared in Civilization VI, but her whole design screamed "I'm Leonidas in female form". She carried a hoplite spear, and her ability was named Thermopylae, but I doubt if the real Spartan queen had ever brandished a hoplite's spear in her hand and she definitely didn't participate in the battle of Thermopylae. I get it, Firaxis wanted a woman as the second Greek leader, and who's the most famous Spartan woman in history? Gorgo. I still believe the choice was flawed. The saying that only Spartan women give birth to men, which was supposedly said by Gorgo during her interaction with one Athenian woman, wasn't even one of her dialogue lines.

Whatever the case, we need a militaristic Spartan as a leader to be added in the future for a very important reason. The current capital of Greece is Athenai, but Athens wasn't always the strongest city. Cities such as Sparta, Corinth, Syracuse, Thebes, were just as strong or surpassed Athens in strength at some point in history. If a Spartan leader is added to the game, then we can get Sparta as a different capital for Greece, which would be neat. An existing feature in Civilization VI that I liked a lot. I would also like to have the ability to change freely the capital of my civilization inside each Age as well, by the way, but a mod might get released that will let us do exactly that. And I will add another important reason. In the past the only Greek leaders we got were Alexander, Pericles, Cleopatra and Byzantine emperors and empresses (I won't add Hippolyta because she simply never existed in real life). A half Macedonian and half Epirote, an Athenian, another Macedonian and Byzantines. We got a Spartan leader for the first time in Civilization VI, and the leader wasn't even a Spartan king with some strong political and military influence. I think we definitely need to get more Spartan leaders from now on.

If Firaxis doesn't want to make Leonidas a leader, who they should since he is a famous heroic figure in Greece and a popular cultural icon worldwide, then there are some other interesting Spartan options:

Cleomenes I, the brother of Leonidas I and the most influential man in Archaic Greece that was responsible for the expansion of the Peloponnesian League, the turning of the once powerful Argos into a weak city-state and the creation of Athenian democracy. He never lost a battle. His only flaw is that he was besieged by the Athenian citizens in the citadel when trying to secure a tyrant's position in the city, and he had to surrender along with his small force. Although that doesn't count as an infantry battle, it was still humiliating for the king. His ending was cruel and mimicked the fate of the heroes of the tragic plays. He was proclaimed mad, got imprisoned and died by suicide (or got murdered, probably by the Ephors).

Agesilaus II, the Spartan king at the height of Sparta's dominance. He invaded Anatolia and had dreams of reaching the capital Susa in the heart of the Persian Empire, unfortunately the Persians instigated a war back in Greece, and he had to be recalled. At the end of his life, Sparta was at its weakest, while it was at its height when Agesilaus came to power. Nonetheless, he never lost a battle, and he was the epitome of a true Spartan. Proud, brave, disciplined, modest and lacked the desire to gain riches for himself. He died on his way home from a trip to Egypt, where he had provided his service as a mercenary general in order to obtain wealth for Sparta.

Brasidas. Not a king, but he was an ephor for some time and later an extremely successful general. He managed to win the favour of Amphipolis with just words, the greatest Athenian colony in Thrace, and routed an Athenian army killing six hundred soldiers including its general Cleon outside the city with only seven loses! Unfortunately, Brasidas was among the seven. The citizens of Amphipolis heroized him, buried him inside the city (a great honor), and made annual celebrations in his name, while a cenotaph was created besides the tombs of Leonidas and Pausanias in Sparta. His golden wreath and silver ossuary were found in Amphipolis and you can view them nowadays.

Lysander, the figure that epicly won the Peloponnesian War for Sparta, but his haste to start a siege in Boeotia cost him his life in a less epic way. I would advise against choosing Lysander simply because he was unbeatable in sea battles, but achieved nothing significant in infantry battles and the Spartan leader should have some bonus towards infantry anyway.

The fascinating thing about all these figures is that all of them tried to gain the support of city-states other than Sparta. Lysander gained the support of the Aegean cities in favour of Sparta, Brasidas gained the support of the Athenian colonies up north close to Macedonia, Cleomenes I tried to use the power of a coalition that included the strong Peloponnesian League and a few other city-states as a mean to install a tyrant in Athens and later tried to create a league of Arcadian cities to oppose Sparta, and Agesilaus II gained the support of the Greek cities in Minor Asia during his expedition. In the case of Leonidas I, he gathered units of soldiers from different Greek allied cities when marching north to Thermopylae in order to create a sizeable army, which is something that can be used as an ability for him in-game. For instance, he can provide more combat strength to infantry units for each city-state you are the suzerain of and the levying of City-State units can be free for him, or he could even give more defensive bonuses to fortified infantry units. So, a Diplomatic and Militaristic Spartan leader will fit rather well with Greece, in my opinion.

As for Leonidas's appearance, he doesn't have to follow pop culture. He can be depicted older (or even younger) with long braided hair, a bell or muscle cuirass, a doru, a hoplon with a gorgoneion emblem or the Spartan sun symbol of kings while he could wear a Corinthian helmet with a transverse crest that has engraved lions or rams on the bronze cheek plates. Leonidas is also a great candidate for a persona. The Agiad (Diplomatic and Militaristic) and the Geron (Diplomatic and Cultural). The first will depict him with the bronze cuirass and the helmet on. The second will lack the helmet and a crimson chlamys will be draped over him.
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+300 votes! I believe it's time for Leonidas to appear in Sid Meier's Civilization as a leader. He deserves it more than ever this time. In the past not only he was just a Great General, but Xerxes is already a leader in Civilization VII, which will make for an interesting historical interaction, although the two probably never had a conversation with each other in real life. If a Persian Wars scenario ever gets made, then I can see Leonidas being perfect for it.

It is true that his wife Gorgo has appeared in Civilization VI, but her whole design screamed "I'm Leonidas in female form". She carried a hoplite spear, and her ability was named Thermopylae, but I doubt if the real Spartan queen had ever brandished a hoplite's spear in her hand and she definitely didn't participate in the battle of Thermopylae. I get it, Firaxis wanted a woman as the second Greek leader, and who's the most famous Spartan woman in history? Gorgo. I still believe the choice was flawed. The saying that only Spartan women give birth to men, which was supposedly said by Gorgo during her interaction with one Athenian woman, wasn't even one of her dialogue lines.

Whatever the case, we need a militaristic Spartan as a leader to be added in the future for a very important reason. The current capital of Greece is Athenai, but Athens wasn't always the strongest city. Cities such as Sparta, Corinth, Syracuse, Thebes, were just as strong or surpassed Athens in strength at some point in history. If a Spartan leader is added to the game, then we can get Sparta as a different capital for Greece, which would be neat. An existing feature in Civilization VI that I liked a lot. I would also like to have the ability to change freely the capital of my civilization inside each Age as well, by the way, but a mod might get released that will let us do exactly that. And I will add another important reason. In the past the only Greek leaders we got were Alexander, Pericles, Cleopatra and Byzantine emperors and empresses (I won't add Hippolyta because she simply never existed in real life). A half Macedonian and half Epirote, An Athenian, another Macedonian and Byzantines. We got a Spartan leader for the first time in Civilization VI, and the leader wasn't even a Spartan king with some strong political and military influence. I think we definitely need to get more Spartan leaders from now on.

If Firaxis doesn't want to make Leonidas a leader, who they should since he is a famous heroic figure in Greece and a popular cultural icon worldwide, then there are some other interesting Spartan options:

Cleomenes I, the brother of Leonidas I and the most influential man in Archaic Greece that was responsible for the expansion of the Peloponnesian League, the turning of the once powerful Argos into a weak city-state and the creation of Athenian democracy. He never lost a battle. His only flaw is that he was besieged by the Athenian citizens in the citadel when trying to secure a tyrant's position in the city, and he had to surrender along with his small force. Although that doesn't count as an infantry battle, it was still humiliating for the king. His ending was cruel and mimicked the fate of the heroes of the tragic plays. He was proclaimed mad, got imprisoned and died by suicide (or got murdered, probably by the Ephors).

Agesilaus II, the Spartan king at the height of Sparta's dominance. He invaded Anatolia and had dreams of reaching the capital Susa in the heart of the Persian Empire, unfortunately the Persians instigated a war back in Greece, and he had to be recalled. At the end of his life, Sparta was at its weakest, while it was at its height when Agesilaus came to power. Nonetheless, he never lost a battle, and he was the epitome of a true Spartan. Proud, brave, disciplined, modest and lacked the desire to gain riches for himself. He died on his way home from a trip to Egypt, where he had provided his service as a mercenary general in order to obtain wealth for Sparta.

Brasidas. Not a king, but he was an ephor for some time and later an extremely successful general. He managed to win the favour of Amphipolis with just words, the greatest Athenian colony in Thrace, and routed an Athenian army killing six hundred soldiers including its general Cleon outside the city with only seven loses! Unfortunately, Brasidas was among the seven. The citizens of Amphipolis heroized him, buried him inside the city (a great honor), and made annual celebrations in his name, while a cenotaph was created besides the tombs of Leonidas and Pausanias in Sparta. His golden wreath and silver ossuary were found in Amphipolis and you can view them nowadays.

Lysander, the figure that epicly won the Peloponnesian War for Sparta, but his haste to start a siege in Boeotia cost him his life in a less epic way. I would advise against choosing Lysander simply because he was unbeatable in sea battles, but achieved nothing significant in infantry battles and the Spartan leader should have some bonus towards infantry anyway.

The fascinating thing about all these figures is that all of them tried to gain the support of city-states other than Sparta. Lysander gained the support of the Aegean cities in favour of Sparta, Brasidas gained the support of the Athenian colonies up north close to Macedonia, Cleomenes I tried to use the power of a coalition that included the strong Peloponnesian League and a few other city-states as a mean to install a tyrant in Athens and later tried to create a league of Arcadian cities to oppose Sparta, and Agesilaus II gained the support of the Greek cities in Minor Asia during his expedition. In the case of Leonidas I, he gathered units of soldiers from different Greek allied cities when marching north to Thermopylae in order to create a sizeable army, which is something that can be used as an ability for him in-game. For instance, he can provide more combat strength to infantry units for each city-state you are the suzerain of and the levying of City-State units can be free for him, or he could even give more defensive bonuses to fortified infantry units. So, a Diplomatic and Militaristic Spartan leader will fit rather well with Greece, in my opinion.

As for Leonidas's appearance, he doesn't have to follow pop culture. He can be depicted older (or even younger) with long braided hair, a bell or muscle cuirass, a doru, a hoplon with a gorgoneion emblem or the Spartan sun symbol of kings while he could wear a Corinthian helmet with a transverse crest that has engraved lions or rams on the bronze cheek plates. Leonidas is also a great candidate for a persona. The Agiad (Diplomatic and Militaristic) and the Geron (Diplomatic and Cultural). The first will depict him with the bronze cuirass and the helmet on. The second will lack the helmet and a crimson chlamys will be draped over him.
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Beautiful, high energy post my friend.
 
who's the most famous Spartan woman in history?
Without question Helen of Troy, probably followed by Archidamia (who probably would have been a better choice than Gorgo). I'd never heard of Gorgo before Civ6.
 
I came here to whine about the fact that we’ve got two Petition to Add X Leader topics on the main page, but Homer would indeed by pretty cool. Maybe give him something like “Generate a Codex/Relic/Great Work every X promotions on a Commander”

Leonidas, for all the pop culture weight he carries, is just another militaristic leader in a game full of them. And after the Cyrus/Tomyris dichotomy of Civ VI, I think we’re due for a Civ entry where Persia isn’t the implicit bad guy.
 
We have enough warmongers and are already inevitably getting Alexander; any other Greek leader we get should be diplomatic/culture focused.
Leonidas, for all the pop culture weight he carries, is just another militaristic leader in a game full of them. And after the Cyrus/Tomyris dichotomy of Civ VI, I think we’re due for a Civ entry where Persia isn’t the implicit bad guy.
We have currently five Greek leader spots left bar Alexander in order to match Civilization VI's splendid Greek representation, so that shouldn't be worrying. :lol: Jokes aside (or maybe not), We will certainly get more warmongers in the future, meaning Leonidas can be one of them. As a warmonger, I don't find this a negative, but I get why people want more peacemongers to fit their playstyle. We are in need of more Spartan representation in Sid Meier's Civilization, though. Gorgo was the first Spartan we ever got. I can also see the Spartan leader having two personae, with one being Diplomatic and Cultural, the other Diplomatic and Militaristic. In the case of Brasidas, the Polemarch and the Ephor. In the case of the kings, the Agiad/Eurypontid and the Geron as mentioned above. Lysander's personae will need to be a little bit different. The Navarch (Diplomatic and Militaristic) and the Administrator (Diplomatic and Economic). All Laconophiles will have fun playing as any of them.

Without question Helen of Troy, probably followed by Archidamia (who probably would have been a better choice than Gorgo).
If we count mythological nonexistent people, then yes, Helen of Sparta is the most famous of all. You are right, Archidamia would have been a better pick than Gorgo, since she took an active role in a real siege and her determination was pivotal in proving the Spartan women's fighting spirit to the council that wanted to evacuate them.

I'd never heard of Gorgo before Civ6.
Really? You haven't heard of Gorgo before? I believe Lena Headey's portrayal of the real queen in 300 and 300 Rise of an Empire was the most defining factor as to why Gorgo was picked as a leader in Civilization VI.

For as moving a story as Thermopylae is, it was a defeat, a sacrifice. Is there something noble in a king dying with his troops to buy his countrymen time to escape? Yes, absolutely.

But I don't know if "heroic sacrifice" is a feat worth rewarding with Leader status when we have world conquerors, revolutionary intellectuals, and globe-trotting explorers as our current roster. He'd just feel a little out of place.
We got Trung Trac as a leader, she led a failed rebellion for three years and her head was sent to the Han emperor as a result. I don't see why Leonidas deserves the leader status less. Heroic sacrifice can be as important as exploring, conquering, researching or producing a work of art in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind seeing him eventually. But we should definitely get Alexander and a cultural Greek leader first.
Definitely! Leonidas doesn't have to appear as soon as possible, but one Spartan leader is a must-have in my view.

Solon would be nice to see.
Solon laid the foundation of Athenian democracy, but I was recently thinking that Cleisthenes, the father of Athenian democracy, might be a good choice for an Athenian leader, since he reconstituted the Athenian political system and sent it on its democratic path.

If its noble sacrifices you're after, Constantine XI (the last Byzantine emperor) wouldn't be a bad pick. He could fulfill the rivalry aspect when the Ottomans and an Ottoman leader inevitably get added, and didn't seem to be a half-bad emperor either.
Emperor Constantine XI died heroically just like Leonidas, trying to prevent the fall of Constantinople, but I think there are better candidates for a Byzantine ruler such as Constantine, Justinian (who I believe will return in Civilization VII, but I would prefer someone new), Belisarius, Heraclius, Basil II or Alexios I Komnenos.

If no Leonidas, I would love Homer to be a leader in the game.
I have thought of Homer too, the king of poets, but I can detect three major issues with him as a leader. His first attribute will be obviously Cultural, but I fail to pick another. Will it be Diplomatic? Scientific? Economic? Expansionist? Militaristic? Will it be a Wildcard attribute all alone? None of them seem to fit him other than Cultural. Moreover, his existence is disputed by modern historians. He was also blind according to the sources, which might make his depiction controversial or awkward, but I would love to see both Homer and Leonidas as leaders in the game.
 
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Why is a blind leader controversial and awkward? We had a blind leader civ V (Dandolo), and can‘t remember a controversy about his blindness.

As to Leonidas: hell, no! We had a Spartan in civ VI just now. Greece has easily 50 A-Tier leaders to choose from. There is no need for such a repetitiveness. Same goes for statesmen from Athens by the way. For a non-Argead Greek warmonger, I would like to have Antigonos I. - or is he also controversial and awkward for having just one eye?

But this actually already about the third spot for Greece after the apparently inevitable Alexander and the somewhat likely Archimedes.
 
I'd love to see Sappho as a Greek cultural-focused leader just because of how fun she'd be as a civ leader (imagine how salty "anti woke" homophobes would be at this lesbian representation :p ) Bonus points for her having unique diplomatic responses flirtatious with female leaders (to be fair I think some hetero leaders could have such feature as well, especially infamous Benjamin Franklin :p )

Or some philosopher - Plato or Aristotle as a Greek leader would be incredible and strangely fitting, given how much both of them dealt with politics. Greece focused on culture, science and political influence and government.

Archimedes could sort of work and feel cool, seeing how he was employed by Syracuse to do military stuff? This would be Greece with less political and more scientific and maybe maritime and economic focus. Yet another option would be Themistocles, to cover two latter niches.
 
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Really? You haven't heard of Gorgo before? I believe Lena Headey's portrayal of the real queen in 300 and 300 Rise of an Empire was the most defining factor as to why Gorgo was picked as a leader in Civilization VI.
I'm not really the target audience for the "muscly men grunting" genre. :p
 
IF we must have a leader from a one-note (militaristic) Greek city-state, we can do much better than a Leader best known for getting himself killed. By that criteria, the Modern Age American Leader should be George Armstrong Custer.

Far better would be one of the more successful Lacedemonian leaders, like Brasidas, or Lycurgus the semi-legendary law-giver for a really influential Leader.

For that matter, given the non-leader leaders in Civ VII, we can look a lot further than the Spartan kings for influential Greek Leaders:

I will, of course, always go for Alcibiades just for the sheer contrariness of him as a Leader of anything more organized than a Pandemonium, but some other candidates that spring to mind:

Pythagoreas, either as a geometrician/mathematician or as the founder of a religion.
Polycrates, Tyrant of Samos, a truely Naval Leader for very early classical Greece, with builder/engineering chops as well.
Dionysius of Syracusa, who founded (possibly) the world's first Defense Research establishment and was a Friend of Philosophers - if you were not too careful about the definition of 'friend'.
Solon of Athens, with potential as a law-giver, economist, and one of the first known Tourists.
Kleopatra of Epirus, of whom I have posted before - the one legitimate female Greek classical ruler

And, as they say: "Now for something completely Different . . ."
Agamemnon or Nestor from the Mycenean period - semi-legendary because their portrayal will inevitably owe much to Homer, but potentially an interesting step outside of the traditional classical Greek/Athenian/Spartan/Macedonian leader pool.
 
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