Polling Posters on Putin's Perspicacity

[Formaldehyde]

It's an annexation.

It might very well be if the Crimean people vote for it in sufficient numbers.

Some people don't seem to like the notion of the citizens of the region determining their own future, instead of themselves.

Well, it amounts to admitting that the current movement of troops is not, in fact, legitimate.

 

[red_elk]

Reminds me of a joke:

- Sir, what are you doing?! You are urinating into the swimming-pool!
- So what is the big deal? Doesn't everyone do it?
- Well, maybe, but not from the diving platform!

Makes perfect sense, this way you don't have to swim in this pool yourself.

 

[Yeekim]

I'm just wondering, if all governments are equally disingenuous, hypocritical and evil according to you, what makes you support the Russian one so much? You are being even less critical of Putin than some known Russian nationalists here.

Does this make you feel cool and edgy?
Or is it an extreme case of western self-loathing? Some strange inferiority complex?
Or do you prefer the guy who is so disingenuous that there is absolutely no question that he is lying?

Can't be a paid propagandist, those are usually a bit more intelligent

I can't help but wonder.

 

[Tahuti]

Some people don't seem to like the notion of the citizens of the region determining their own future, instead of themselves.

There are probably a lot better ways to give Crimea and the Russian-speakers of Ukraine an equitable political representation then by simply annexing those territories to Russia and propping up the likes of Putin in the process.

The Ukrainian leadership should give more recognition to ethnic Russians in the region, by enabling Russian as a co-official language and implementing a federal structure. Annexation by Russia simply does not equal more rights and freedoms for Ukraine's Russian-speakers.

 

[red_elk]

The Ukrainian leadership should give more recognition to ethnic Russians in the region, by enabling Russian as a co-official language and implementing a federal structure.

What will make them do this?
Ukraine didn't to anything of it for more than 20 years of its independence, despite constant pressure from Russia and its own Russian-speaking citizens. Even Yanukovich didn't make Russian second state language, despite his promises.

 

[Tahuti]

What will make them do this?
Ukraine didn't to anything of it for more than 20 years of its independence, despite constant pressure from Russia and its own Russian-speaking citizens. Even Yanukovich didn't make Russian second state language, despite his promises.

Pressure by the EU, naturally. The treatment of ethnic Russians in the Baltics has significantly improved as well thanks to EU pressure. Arguably for the better of all Estonians/Latvians/Lithuanians: Pretty much all the achievements and improvements by the Baltic States upon their independence from the USSR would have been vain if they continued to not fully recognise the rights of their ethnic Russian population and in so doing would have granted Putin an excuse to interfere with their affairs.

 

[red_elk]

Pressure by the EU, naturally. The treatment of ethnic Russians in the Baltics has significantly improved as well thanks to EU pressure.

Not sure if it's good example. After all EU improvements, neither of Baltic states adopted Russian as co-official language, as for de-facto policies, Ukraine arguably treats Russian-speakers even better than Baltic states.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm just wondering, if all governments are equally disingenuous, hypocritical and evil according to you, what makes you support the Russian one so much? You are being even less critical of Putin than some known Russian nationalists here.

Does this make you feel cool and edgy?

"I'm just wondering" why you still can't read a few simple sentences without concocting such absurd nonsense about my opinions merely because we disagree about something.

"Does this make you feel cool and edgy?"

There are probably a lot better ways to give Crimea and the Russian-speakers of Ukraine an equitable political representation then by simply annexing those territories to Russia and propping up the likes of Putin in the process.

Why do you even care that this might "prop up the likes of Putin in the process"? How is he any worse than any of these Ukrainian leaders?

The Ukrainian leadership should give more recognition to ethnic Russians in the region, by enabling Russian as a co-official language and implementing a federal structure. Annexation by Russia simply does not equal more rights and freedoms for Ukraine's Russian-speakers.

The people of the region appear to disagree with your own personal opinion. Now don't they? Why do you possibly think your opinion should trump theirs in this matter?

But you are quite right that the discrimination and the persecution of ethnic Russians in Ukraine should finally end, just as it should in Estonia and the other countries which continue to bear grudges from the Cold War.

 

[Gucumatz]

I'm just wondering, if all governments are equally disingenuous, hypocritical and evil according to you, what makes you support the Russian one so much? You are being even less critical of Putin than some known Russian nationalists here.

Does this make you feel cool and edgy?
Or is it an extreme case of western self-loathing? Some strange inferiority complex?
Or do you prefer the guy who is so disingenuous that there is absolutely no question that he is lying?

Can't be a paid propagandist, those are usually a bit more intelligent

I can't help but wonder.

Don't edge him on Yeekim. Forma is just... Forma. Every group has one of him for some reason
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Its been a while since a regional power/great power has actually annexed territory hasn't it? Anyone know the last time it happened, was it Tibet?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Don't edge him on Yeekim. Forma is just... Forma. Every group has one of him for some reason

Yet it doesn't seem to bother you in the least that his complaints consist of sheer nonsense.

Its been a while since a regional power/great power has actually annexed territory hasn't it? Anyone know the last time it happened, was it Tibet?

After all, it hasn't been since 1898 that the US annexed Hawaii.

And 1899 since they did it to the Philippines.

At least in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, it was merely a matter of a real "invasion" and occupation in lieu of annexation...

 

[Gucumatz]

His complaints so far as I can tell are the movement of troops in Crimea - something thats a relatively fair complaint from a western perspective. I might disagree with Yekim, in so much that I think its a logical move from Putin's perspective and that "legitimacy" in this case isn't exactly relevant to what's going to happen in Crimea - but some people don't like to use hyperbole at every corner and feel like every thread is something that needs to be "won" unlike some people...

 

[Formaldehyde]

So you didn't even read the post laden with actual "hyperbole" which you apparently agreed?

What are you trying to "win" here?



Why don't you both try to discuss the topic instead of others who merely disagree with your own "hyperbole"?

 

[Gucumatz]

Oh Forma if anything at least people can rely on you to stay the same.
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Yea everyone knows about the US annexation of Hawaii and Philippines. I was just curious if anyone knew the last major(ish) annexation by a regional power/major power - it was China with Tibet right or did something else happen later? Its been a while since powers have actually annexed a state/territory rather than just attempting to create a protectorate, which might be why some of the west is a little shocked at this move.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Only it is the same small group of "people" who incessantly whine about it, instead of discussing the topic.

And I personally think there shouldn't be anything "shocking" about an "annexation" where the people democratically vote to split from a country where they continue to be oppressed merely for their ethnicity and culture to join one where they know they will not. YMMV.

 

[Gucumatz]

I don't think its surprising that the option is being done either. I also don't think it was surprising that a bunch of rabble rousing protesters overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine in Kiev either. Just because the facts on the ground [Corruption, a near bankrupt Ukraine, caught between different regional powers and influences] made this whole situation somewhat inevitable, doesn't mean it can't be surprising to the west who has since grown to use diplomacy more often than not.

I don't think comments like Kerry's are wrong when he accuses Putin of 19th century politics, but sometimes "old ways" as Machiavellian as they may seem, are still effective for a country's regional interests.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It wasn't a small group of extremely violent protesters who overthrew the democratic government. It was the US and the EU which did so by apparently ignoring what was really occurring, while believing all the propaganda being disseminated by the other side.

As Putin said himself, Yanukovych blew it by allowing "corruption and cronyism" to become rampant to the point where it was even far worse than it is in Russia. He should have tried to do more to bring it under control.

 

[Flying Pig]

Oh Forma if anything at least people can rely on you to stay the same.
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Yea everyone knows about the US annexation of Hawaii and Philippines. I was just curious if anyone knew the last major(ish) annexation by a regional power/major power - it was China with Tibet right or did something else happen later? Its been a while since powers have actually annexed a state/territory rather than just attempting to create a protectorate, which might be why some of the west is a little shocked at this move.

Iraq of Kuwait, I suppose - at the time they qualified as a regional power. I remember one of the American commanders during the invasion remarking that 'ten days ago Iraq had the fourth largest army in the world, and today they have the second-largest army in Iraq'. Israel annexed quite a lot of territory during the Six Days War, though they've given most of it back now. India annexed the Portuguese enclaves there by force in 1961. Oh, and we annexed Rockall in the late fifties.