Possible new leader for each civ

How about the great political reformer, Tony Blair? Now that he has stood down, I'm sure he must be eligible. :)

England: Tony Blair
Spiritual, Imperialistic
Favourite civic: Police State
Misc: High probability his civ will attempt to vassalise with America
 
This thread is thriving. Interesting posts keep coming, flaming is low, limited nationalism. I like it.

@Antilogic

yep, we agree on many issues, it seems. WW2 leaders are overrepresented. If I had it my way, the ONLY 20th century leader present would be Lenin.
Wether you like the chap or not, he changed a rotten kingdom losing WW1 into a yet unseen communist country, against the forces of the rest of the planet, paving the way to blazingly fast industrialization and the position of superpower that the Soviet Union would hold for 70 years.
Hadn't he died so early maybe he would have gotten rid of Stalin, too. Who knows what the Soviet Union might have become in that case.

HRE with Charlemagne -> Austria with Karl V: I do the same ;) But Otto I should stay with HRE, IMHO. The HRE of Otto I and Barbarossa contained Northern Italy and Burgundy, too. Besides, I would rename the game's Germany into Prussia. Leaders for Germany as we know it are only Bismarck the Iron Chancellor, Wilhelm II the Mad (got rid of the Iron Chancellor, styled himself Kriegsherr and dived into a WW1 spiral) and, well, Adolf the Evil.

You convinced me with your Meiji-Victoria figurehead reasoning. Well put.

@Adder, DrSun

after reading your suggestions and with Antilogic's logic in mind, I would modify my list as follows:

Babylon: Sargon II
Rome: Titus

Byzantium: Constantin
Vikings: Canute
HRE: Barbarossa

Spain: Karl V
France: Henry of Navarre (instead of De Gaulle)
England: Cromwell (instead of Churchill)
Russia: Lenin (instead of Stalin)

Japan: Meiji
China: Taizong of Tang
India: Babur
Persia: Akbar
Arabia: Harun al Rashid

Rome was alternatively blessed with awesome leadership and cursed with abismal folly (Caligola anyone?), there is too much to choose from. The greatest still are Caesar and Augustus, so we might as well go for some funky war machine like Titus. Aggressive, Charismatic with a liking for Nationhood? Watch out, Boudica! Alternatively, why not the Montezuma-like madness of Nero?

Tamerlane (Timur) was somehow tempting, but:
1) he was Mongol in origin, Turk(ic) in language and identity, Persian by culture;
2) he was a mobile slaughterhouse who liked to erect human skull pyramids in conquered cities throughout the Middle East, Persia, central Asia and India. We are talking of tens of thousands of skulls per pyramid.
In short, your multicultural worst nightmare. To which civ would you give the dubious honor of having him as leader? IMHO, he beats Adolf the Evil hands down.

Karl V is a jolly we can play for Spain, the Netherlands, or the HRE. Since Spain was plagued by otherwise crappy leadership, let's play him for Spain! He was a dutchman by culture, King of Spain (and the american empire) by his mother's side and Holy Roman Emperor by his father's. Possibly the only shot at European Unification between Charlemagne and Napoleon. He was only stopped by the immensity of the simultaneous struggle against France, the Ottomans and the Reformation revolt of HRE princes.
 
This thread is thriving. Interesting posts keep coming, flaming is low, limited nationalism. I like it.

@Antilogic

yep, we agree on many issues, it seems. WW1 leaders are overrepresented. If I had it my way, the ONLY 20th century leader present would be Lenin.
Wether you like the chap or not, he changed a rotten kingdom losing WW1 into a yet unseen communist country, against the forces of the rest of the planet, paving the way to blazingly fast industrialization and the position of superpower that the Soviet Union would hold for 70 years.
Hadn't he died so early maybe he would have gotten rid of Stalin, too. Who knows what the Soviet Union might have become in that case.

HRE with Charlemagne -> Austria with Karl V: I do the same ;) But Otto I should stay with HRE, IMHO. The HRE of Otto I and Barbarossa contained Northern Italy and Burgundy, too. Besides, I would rename the game's Germany into Prussia. Leaders for Germany as we know it are only Bismarck the Iron Chancellor, Wilhelm II the Mad (got rid of the Iron Chancellor, styled himself Kriegsherr and dived into a WW1 spiral) and, well, Adolf the Evil.

You convinced me with your Meiji-Victoria figurehead reasoning. Well put.

@Adder, DrSun

after reading your suggestions and with Antilogic's logic in mind, I would modify my list as follows:

Babylon: Sargon II
Rome: Titus

Byzantium: Constantin
Vikings: Canute
HRE: Barbarossa

Spain: Karl V
France: Henry of Navarre (instead of De Gaulle)
England: Cromwell (instead of Churchill)
Russia: Lenin (instead of Stalin)

Japan: Meiji
China: Taizong of Tang
India: Babur
Persia: Akbar
Arabia: Harun al Rashid

Rome was alternatively blessed with awesome leadership and cursed with abismal folly (Caligola anyone?), there is too much to choose from. The greatest still are Caesar and Augustus, so we might as well go for some funky war machine like Titus. Aggressive, Charismatic with a liking for Nationhood? Watch out, Boudica! Alternatively, why not the Montezuma-like madness of Nero?

Tamerlane (Timur) was somehow tempting, but:
1) he was Mongol in origin, Turk(ic) in language and identity, Persian by culture;
2) he was a mobile slaughterhouse who liked to erect human skull pyramids in conquered cities throughout the Middle East, Persia, central Asia and India. We are talking of tens of thousands of skulls per pyramid.
In short, your multicultural worst nightmare. To which civ would you give the dubious honor of having him as leader? IMHO, he beats Adolf the Evil hands down.

Karl V is a jolly we can play for Spain, the Netherlands, or the HRE. Since Spain was plagued by otherwise crappy leadership, let's play him for Spain! He was a dutchman by culture, King of Spain (and the american empire) by his mother's side and Holy Roman Emperor by his father's. Possibly the only shot at European Unification between Charlemagne and Napoleon. He was only stopped by the immensity of the simultaneous struggle against France, the Ottomans and the Reformation revolt of HRE princes.

You may have meant WW2 where you said WW1...

My 20th century leader picks right now are Gandhi (left in because I haven't examined Indian history yet, but I'm inclined to leave good ol' Gandhi), Meiji (doesn't he spill over into the early 1900's?), and Teddy Roosevelt in favor of FDR.

The sole reason I am considering not renaming the Germans "Prussians" is to incorporate one of these earlier German["ic"] leaders, either Barbarossa or Otto I. Otherwise, I would have made that move already. With the HRE gone and replaced with Austria, it's easier to justify making them German leaders. I left Charles V with Austria just because he was the main guy from Civ3, not to mention his role in the Reformation (an underrepresented part of European history in the game, compared to the over-represented WW2).

My original plan for Charles V was unique: we would add Austria with two leaders, somebody else and Charles V. Then, if Charles V could also lead Spain, in addition to Austria. So, if Isabella was picked for Spain, then either Charles V or the other leader could lead Austria. If Charles V was picked for Spain, then the other leader would have to lead Austria. Vice-versa is also true. It was a way to give both Spain and Austria a second leader in one move. I hadn't considered him as the head of the Netherlands, though, just Austria or Spain.

Is Sargon more appropriate for Sumeria or Babylon? I had him as a second Sumerian leader, with a second Babylonian leader as Nebuchadnezzar, a particularly famous figure, although poorly researched by myself.

For Rome, I wouldn't even consider Nero. Trajan and Hadrian for late rulers, and Constantine (under a similar system above for Charles V--he can rule both Rome and Byzantium). I need to read more early Roman Republican history to pick out a good name for that period. Sulla jumps to mind, but I'm not sure he would be my final pick.
 
You may have meant WW2 where you said WW1...

Yep, sorry. Corrected.

My 20th century leader picks right now are Gandhi (left in because I haven't examined Indian history yet, but I'm inclined to leave good ol' Gandhi), Meiji (doesn't he spill over into the early 1900's?), and Teddy Roosevelt in favor of FDR.

Gandhi was great but out of contest: he was against nationalism and against planned industrialization, the forces driving India at his age. India would have gained independence even without his help, and Pakistan did split away even against his advice. He was soon killed by an hindu nationalist.
Ironically, his biggest contribution was to present decolonisation as "the right thing to do" in the West's point of view.

Meiji is 1800 for me. I like Eric Hobsbawm's picture of the "long XIX century" starting 1789 and ending 1914, followed by the "short XX century" starting 1914 and ending 1989. If I might suggest some wonderful history books, then it would be his 1800 trilogy: "1789-1848 Age of Revolutions", "1848-1870 Age of Capital" and "1870-1914 Age of Empire".

FDR had a big propaganda component and still lacks a balanced hystorical analysis, but that's typical of the recent XX century. He was much better than any other US President for quite a long time, though.
I see Teddy as a symbol of the new (for that time) US imperialism. But this started earlier, with the Mexican War. Was it Andrew Jackson?

The sole reason I am considering not renaming the Germans "Prussians" is to incorporate one of these earlier German["ic"] leaders, either Barbarossa or Otto I. Otherwise, I would have made that move already. With the HRE gone and replaced with Austria, it's easier to justify making them German leaders.

Historically, the austrian empire was formally a collection of disparate personal Hapsburg domains, aquired mostly through marriage. That made the title of the leader of the family a huge cacophony: "Duke of Austria, King of Bohemia, King of Hungary, Margrav of LostInTranslatia..." The imperial title they held was precisely the HRE title, which they were able to keep in the family almost consistently for 4 centuries.

Napoleon was the one responsible for abolishing the HRE as a relic of the past. The "Austrian Empire" was formally born in 1815 after the Wien Congress: Prussia did not want the HRE back, seeing it as Austrian interference, forcing Austria to do some "diplomatic outing".

The HRE was the only political union perceived by the german(ic) people, their First Empire. The fact that it included Bohemia and parts of France, Italy and the Netherlands was not a problem. It was not perceived as "national" in the sense of nationalism, this concept being only a later fantasy. In a way, the HRE died when nationalism was born, leaving 2 local powers, Austria and Prussia, fight for dominance. The national one, Prussia, won and found the (second) German Empire, while the multicultural Austria lost and slid toward the path of marginalization and instability.

By the way, this is why the Nazis called theirs "the third Reich (empire)", since they perceived it as the third instalment of the franchise.

So the answer to the question "which one is Germany" is somewhat arbitrary. The title slid from HRE to Prussia between 1815 and 1870, along with the rise of new social and political views.

Possibly, a good trade-off might be keeping HRE in name, getting rid of Aachen and Charlemagne (start with Vienna, Prague, etc; rename Charlemagne into Barbarossa) and "feel" it as Austria, while renaming Germany into Prussia.
Yes, that means that there is no Germany in the game. So what? There is no United Kingdom either.

An event changing Civs names and giving minor bonuses after certain discoveries would be cool. After Nationalism, the most powerful between Prussia or the HRE can change its name into Germany. After Liberalism, the most powerful between Celtia or England can change its name into United Kingdom. After Communism, Russia can become the Soviet Union (and change back to Russia with the same tech that obsoletes the Kremlin). After Feudalism, Rome can become Italy. Aztec would become Mexico, Incas would be Perù, etc. We could have Castilla becoming Spain.

The REALLY funky thing would be the possibility of changing civ (I mean flag, color and LEADER) after a certain technology and with a choice, like:
celtia -> (stay Celtia or become) HRE OR England
HRE -> (stay HRE or become) France OR Germany
Rome -> (since Italy cannot start, one MUST become) Italy OR Bysantium
England -> (since UK cannot start, one MUST become) United Kingdom OR America
In my example, Italy and the UK are only name changes for the civs, the leaders stay the same.
If the country you would like to change into already exists, you can pick the alternative or stay as you are.
Of course you could start the game with America anyway, but you would not get any "change into" event.

I left Charles V with Austria just because he was the main guy from Civ3, not to mention his role in the Reformation (an underrepresented part of European history in the game, compared to the over-represented WW2).

Holy words! I would LOVE a religious split mechanic of some sort. Justifying game efforts to keep it in one piece, or accepting reality and prepare for the split...

My original plan for Charles V was unique: we would add Austria with two leaders, somebody else and Charles V. Then, if Charles V could also lead Spain, in addition to Austria. So, if Isabella was picked for Spain, then either Charles V or the other leader could lead Austria. If Charles V was picked for Spain, then the other leader would have to lead Austria. Vice-versa is also true. It was a way to give both Spain and Austria a second leader in one move. I hadn't considered him as the head of the Netherlands, though, just Austria or Spain.

Neat. But I would leave it independent, and just add a +10 relationship bonus if the leaders happen to be the same person. There might be conflict between bureaucracies and noblemen, even if the ruler is formally the same...

Is Sargon more appropriate for Sumeria or Babylon? I had him as a second Sumerian leader, with a second Babylonian leader as Nebuchadnezzar, a particularly famous figure, although poorly researched by myself.

He was Akkadian. Akkad started north of Sumer, roughly a millennium later, and had a different language and culture. They absorbed large parts of Sumerian culture but kept their own language, and eventually became the dominant power, inglobating and assimilating the former. A bit like the Greece-Rome relationship. Babylon was founded by the Akkadians (possibly by Sargon himself), and remained Akkadian until the Assyrian invasion. After that there was the second Babylonian Empire (Nebuchadnezzar II, the one appearing in the Bible) which had a so called "Caldean" culture, somewhat a daughter culture of the Akkadian as the Byzantine is to the Roman.

For Rome, I wouldn't even consider Nero. Trajan and Hadrian for late rulers, and Constantine (under a similar system above for Charles V--he can rule both Rome and Byzantium). I need to read more early Roman Republican history to pick out a good name for that period. Sulla jumps to mind, but I'm not sure he would be my final pick.

The "double" Constantine sounds good. Trajan would be the other choice. He was great in public building and military issues, altough not awesome like Caesar or Augustus. These two were almost otherwordly.

Caesar was a brilliant general, a talented journalist (De Bello Gallico), a charismatic and ruthless leader, and also a generous and merciful man. He was killed by the fearful and envious men he spared - including Brutus, one of his adopted sons.

Born Gaius Octavius (Thurinus), Augustus was also adopted by Caesar and changed thereafter his name into (Gaius Julius) Caesar Octavianus. Augustus is a title he was bestowed by the Senate only after the civil war, meaning "the majestic increaser".
After a brief period of hesitation after the death of his father, he became chillingly single-minded and absolutely merciless: he spent Caesar's considerable personal fortune to raise armies, he used and betrayed all of his friends and he brutally killed through epuration lists any opposer, securing the long-lasting success and peace that Caesar lenience did not achieve. He had seen it, and learnt from it.
Then he built on his bloody and expensive victory. He morphed into a deviously clever politician (governing absolutely but without alienating the Senate, as Caesar was not able to) and a magnificent ruler in his reconstruction of Rome: 40 years of uninterrupted peace and stability, grandiose public constructions and a golden age of literature and arts.
 
New Civ: Israel! New Leader: Golda Meier.

Traits... Well they get a no-non-state religion spread no matter what religious civic they use and +10 for every +1 Our Borders spark tensions.

UB Walls even bigger then those of the celts
UU Merkava tanks although they sucked at combating Hezbollah
 
New Civ: Israel! New Leader: Golda Meier.

Traits... Well they get a no-non-state religion spread no matter what religious civic they use and +10 for every +1 Our Borders spark tensions.

UB Walls even bigger then those of the celts
UU Merkava tanks although they sucked at combating Hezbollah

This would better fit in an auspicable "new civs" thread, if it weren't too spark too many flame, uh, wars.

[OFF_TOPIC]
Israel would be cool. I'd pick Solomon as a leader (one of the most succesful and tolerant ever seen there. Maybe there is a correlation). I'd say religious, financial.
UB: the Kibbutz, a supermarket that gives +25% culture
UU: the Mossad Agent, a spy with an extra movement that does not need to wait a turn in a city before operating.
[/OFF_TOPIC]
 
This would better fit in an auspicable "new civs" thread, if it weren't too spark too many flame, uh, wars.

[OFF_TOPIC]
Israel would be cool. I'd pick Solomon as a leader (one of the most succesful and tolerant ever seen there. Maybe there is a correlation). I'd say religious, financial.
UB: the Kibbutz, a supermarket that gives +25% culture
UU: the Mossad Agent, a spy with an extra movement that does not need to wait a turn in a city before operating.
[/OFF_TOPIC]
Too bad Solomon can't be a leader since he's a prophet, and Israel didn't exist back then.

On the other hand, scratch my hateful comments, I would like to see an Israeli Civ in the next expansion/installment. The Bible is a solid proof that it existed millions of years ago. It even explains how the Israeli forcefully took the philistine land from philistinian/palestinian idol worshipping heathen Goliath etc using the blessed power of Hebrew David and Eloh almighty. What the hell is fireaxis waiting for?

Although I do insist that the UB and UU should be militaristic and Agg trait is a must. You should take into account that 2 upstanding soldiers were kidnapped, a whole country was rendered into ashes and over 1500 people were righteously eliminated, if that's not Aggressive, nothing is.

Also could you link me to that thread of yours, please?
 
Too bad Solomon can't be a leader since he's a prophet, and Israel didn't exist back then.

He is a prophet only in the islamic point of view, I think. I don't think there is an islamic ban on representing him too, is there?

Besides, I am positive current standard history consider Solomon an historical figure and a "kingdom if Israel" existing at the time.

In any case, a "temple of Solomon" was built, since Titus burn it down and the feat was celebrated on a triumphal arc in Rome. The proofs: the Arc of Titus is still standing in the Imperial Forum in Rome, and a wall of the temple is still standing in Jerusalem.
Of course, such a temple built is a strong indicator of a state of some sort being behind the operation, just like Angkor Wat made us modern acknowledge the existence of the Khmer civilization. Let us call that state "Israel", ok?

Furhtermore, as far as I remember, the economic success of Solomon's Israel was mostly due to his "free trade" policy with the Phoenician trading cities of Tyre and, well, Sidon. He opened the trade route between Sabah (modern Yemen) and the Mediterranean, profiting greatly as middleman. He was also so tolerant (or wise, or shrewd) to take the Sabah's queen as wife and accept other cults.

Also could you link me to that thread of yours, please?

It does not exist yet. I wish it'd exist 'cause I'd likely spam it with posts (as here), but I have not the heart of inflicting it on the community myself :P

[OFF_TOPIC]
On the most recent history: I followed the invasion on the mass media, and I am deeply sorry for what the people there must have been through.
I think it was both a strategic mistake and a grave criminal responsibility to mount such an offensive in those conditions. But it lies not on Israel or the Israeli, rather on a much smaller number of government and army people (not only from Israel), just like the responsibility of the kidnappings lies not on Lebanon but on some Hizbollah guys (not only from Lebanon).

Heck, I am actually supporting the decision taken by some countries (including mine) to step in as a peace force. I very rarely do. Because the alternative is atrocious (I am old enough to remember many lebanese spotlights) and because I believe that, differently from some other states in the Middle East, Lebanon HAS a chance of developing into a rich democracy in acceptable times.

Sometimes I feel so paranoid as to think that actually this could be what pushes Israel and Lebanon's "arab allies" to step in, or incite refugees, finance guerrillas, and so on. A functional, multicultural, non-confessional state free from oil monopolies is anathema for every religious fanatic or police state, and a serious competitor for every economy.

Although I find the topic interesting and important, I think that we should stop this exchange here or soon, and let the thread go back to a time-wasting game, where everybody happily curse Montezuma together, ok? ;)
[/OFF_TOPIC]
 
How about Queen D.Catarina of Portugal?

The Queen who married with the King Carlos of England,and introduced the famous Tea in England,and also learned the english how to eat with a knife and a fork....poor england :P
 
^^ Personally I think Henry the Navigator is a very good choice for Portugal... Or is he? I've heard his name a number of places, but I don't really know what he did :p

Wasn't he a famous explorer or something?
 
Henry - AKA - O INFANTE DE SAGRES!!!
That Henry!!!
The dude of the Portuguese Era of the "Descobrimentos" - period of discoveries!!!
Look at wikipedia!
 
Sorry!!! I forget that the world is a BIG PLACE!!!
Henry, was a prince Portuguese, son of João I!
Henry AKA Prince Henry the Navigator or the Seafarer (Portuguese: o Navegador)
He was the one who entrepreneur the sea discoveries of Portugal!
Giving new lands to the world!
He had a fortress on Sagres (is in Algarve) where he add that inspired notion to expand Portugal to the world!

He was one of the greatest Portuguese Leaders, that we ever had! (And that's why he is in Civ3 Conq. as the Leader)!!!

GREAT ;) :cool:
 
Sorry!!! I forget that the world is a BIG PLACE!!!
Henry, was a prince Portuguese, son of João I!
Henry AKA Prince Henry the Navigator or the Seafarer (Portuguese: o Navegador)
He was the one who entrepreneur the sea discoveries of Portugal!
Giving new lands to the world!
He had a fortress on Sagres (is in Algarve) where he add that inspired notion to expand Portugal to the world!

Was he the great one who sailed around in the Atlantic ocean then or was he the great one that sailed along the African coast? :hmm:
 
Neither! He was the one who 'Commanded' the portuguese sailers to sail along African coast and the Atlantic Ocean (to say that Madeira and Azores ARE part of PORTUGAL for ever more)! E also ask Gil Eanes to pass Cape Bojador (the southen part of the know world in that time)!
And was him, who started the enterprise to reach India by sea! (Vasco da Gama, does this name ring a bell to you?).

Gone to dinner!
 
Neither! He was the one who 'Commanded' the portuguese sailers to sail along African coast and the Atlantic Ocean (to say that Madeira and Azores ARE part of PORTUGAL for ever more)! E also ask Gil Eanes to pass Cape Bojador (the southen part of the know world in that time)!
And was him, who started the enterprise to reach India by sea! (Vasco da Gama, does this name ring a bell to you?).

Gone to dinner!

haha, dinner uhm...... :drool:

Commanded... I remember him now. I know Vasco de Gama, actually, and I personally think he was one of the most important persons of the world.

But, I just want to know... Do you know Margaret I or Leif Eriksson?
 
haha, dinner uhm...... :drool:

Commanded... I remember him now. I know Vasco de Gama, actually, and I personally think he was one of the most important persons of the world.

But, I just want to know... Do you know Margaret I or Leif Eriksson?

LOL

What Leif! Great guy!!! He's the Red one, or the son of the Red, I never know who's who! But he was the 1st European to discovery America!!! (I know it wasn't Colombus!!!)

Margaret I, well that one you caught me! I have no idea!!! Scottish queen maybe? :confused: Teach me!!!
 
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