Seon
Not An Evil Liar
What is the price of refining a specific part, by the way?
Pre-SysNES2: Beta-testing and Submission
- Thread starter Disenfrancised
- Start date
Don't know yet. I'm not sure if Dis is sure.
On that note, apart from the load of questions I have, there is one thing that troubles me: Swarms are INCREDIBLY effective. It troubles me, I'm going to look for a solution.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Insert Commandship Name Here:
1x Charm Drive
2x Basic Fusion COre
3x Pellet Fusion Core
2x Deuterium Drives
4x Refined Computer Modules
1x Command Deck
1x Command Staff
1x Jammers
1x EW Suite
1x Gas Vents
1x InterCeptors
2x Fusion Busters
1x Plasma Shield
1x Tungstan Armor
1x Heavy Cladding
1x Reflective Cladding.
Stats: 169 e to produce. 65 s to create.
Initative 5
Dodge -16
Missile Defence 0
Armour 28
Shielding 8
#Missiles 3
Missile Total Damage 49
Int Bonus to Fleet 4
EW Score 21
EW Vulnerability 32
Insert Generic Coran Destroyer Name Here
1x Twist Drive
2x Fission Core
3x Pellet Fusion Core
4x Deuterium Drive
1x Microwave Beamer
1x Microwave Laser
1x Plasma Shielding
Cost: 110 e 43 s to design.
Dodge -14
Missile Defence 0
Armour -3
Shielding 12
#EM 2
EM Total Damage 95
Insert Generic Coran Electronic Warfare Ship Name Here
1x Charm Drive
2x Pellet Fusion Core
3x Deuterium Drive
10x Refined Computer Module
1x Jammers
1x EW Suite
1x Ice Sink
5x Interceptors
1x Laser Net
3x Tungstan Armor
Cost: 130 e to make. 49 s to design
Initative 8
Dodge -13
Missile Defence 0
Armour 12
Shielding 0
#Missiles 5
Missile Total Damage 5
Can make EW attacks YES
EW Score 30
EW Vulnerability 16
Generic Coran Fleet
2x Generic Coran Destroyer + 1x Generic Coran Command Ship + 1x Generic Coran EW Ship.
Cost: 519 e, 157 s.
@ Kal. Get a shield. Actually, shields still can't block a swarm attack properly. Freak.
Except for Matt's 15 intrusion vessel kekeke ship. The only counter to that is getting large enough laser ships with uncoupled microwave lasers to bat'em out of the skies...
1x Charm Drive
2x Basic Fusion COre
3x Pellet Fusion Core
2x Deuterium Drives
4x Refined Computer Modules
1x Command Deck
1x Command Staff
1x Jammers
1x EW Suite
1x Gas Vents
1x InterCeptors
2x Fusion Busters
1x Plasma Shield
1x Tungstan Armor
1x Heavy Cladding
1x Reflective Cladding.
Stats: 169 e to produce. 65 s to create.
Initative 5
Dodge -16
Missile Defence 0
Armour 28
Shielding 8
#Missiles 3
Missile Total Damage 49
Int Bonus to Fleet 4
EW Score 21
EW Vulnerability 32
Insert Generic Coran Destroyer Name Here
1x Twist Drive
2x Fission Core
3x Pellet Fusion Core
4x Deuterium Drive
1x Microwave Beamer
1x Microwave Laser
1x Plasma Shielding
Cost: 110 e 43 s to design.
Dodge -14
Missile Defence 0
Armour -3
Shielding 12
#EM 2
EM Total Damage 95
Insert Generic Coran Electronic Warfare Ship Name Here
1x Charm Drive
2x Pellet Fusion Core
3x Deuterium Drive
10x Refined Computer Module
1x Jammers
1x EW Suite
1x Ice Sink
5x Interceptors
1x Laser Net
3x Tungstan Armor
Cost: 130 e to make. 49 s to design
Initative 8
Dodge -13
Missile Defence 0
Armour 12
Shielding 0
#Missiles 5
Missile Total Damage 5
Can make EW attacks YES
EW Score 30
EW Vulnerability 16
Generic Coran Fleet
2x Generic Coran Destroyer + 1x Generic Coran Command Ship + 1x Generic Coran EW Ship.
Cost: 519 e, 157 s.
@ Kal. Get a shield. Actually, shields still can't block a swarm attack properly. Freak.
Except for Matt's 15 intrusion vessel kekeke ship. The only counter to that is getting large enough laser ships with uncoupled microwave lasers to bat'em out of the skies...
The trade off is the rather horrific cost in volatiles for all the deuterium drives needed. (~310 for the Raven swarm, although the ion jet contributes a good deal)
Symphony D.
Deity
Pretty sure he's talking about my Fleet, which uses almost no volatiles, and mostly can't even go anywhere. 
I'll be surprised if the Fighters were effective at keeping the satellites alive. I considered just spamming more satellites due to their damage potential. With a Space Elevator and some Refining you could put them up at 5e each and make a planet uneconomical to take, or pack them up in freighters and trap somebody on their own planet.
Anyway, back to high quality warships. Again, [CON6] for mass, TL3 everything else.
Jeremy Clarkson class Laser Destroyer
1 Twist Drive (Refined)
2 Antimatter Cores (Refined)
4 Antimatter Drives (Refined)
1 Hibernation Pods
2 Antimatter Bottles (Refined)
1 Computer Module (Refined)
1 Scanner (Refined)
2 Gas Vents (Refined)
4 Microwave Lasers (Refined)
5 Maneuvering Jets (Refined)
1 Gas Rockets (Refined)
1 Pebble Net (Refined)
2 Tungsten Armor
1 Heavy Cladding
Cost: 251e (113e) / 37m / 103v / 24a / 0t / 83s
IS Rating: 11 / IP Speed: 4 / Power: 51 / Heat: -2
Init: 1 / Dodge: 0 [PROP3] / Missile: 3 / Armor: 20 / Shield: 2
Horrendously expensive but EM Total Damage: 448, now with more Armor, Missile Defenses, Shields and a balanced Dodge. Each laser will do 112 damage a shot uncoupled, so there's no real point in combining them when you can one-shot four separate things instead. You have armor? Screw your armor! MORE POWERRR!!!
As a long-term strategy, Refining the design and getting a Space Elevator up is a huge priority, as you can then crank these out at 25e a pop. Depending on the cost of a Space Elevator, you'll make back the costs within 6-10 units and can just keep producing them. Volatiles will be the big limit on this particular design.
I'll be surprised if the Fighters were effective at keeping the satellites alive. I considered just spamming more satellites due to their damage potential. With a Space Elevator and some Refining you could put them up at 5e each and make a planet uneconomical to take, or pack them up in freighters and trap somebody on their own planet.Anyway, back to high quality warships. Again, [CON6] for mass, TL3 everything else.
Jeremy Clarkson class Laser Destroyer
1 Twist Drive (Refined)
2 Antimatter Cores (Refined)
4 Antimatter Drives (Refined)
1 Hibernation Pods
2 Antimatter Bottles (Refined)
1 Computer Module (Refined)
1 Scanner (Refined)
2 Gas Vents (Refined)
4 Microwave Lasers (Refined)
5 Maneuvering Jets (Refined)
1 Gas Rockets (Refined)
1 Pebble Net (Refined)
2 Tungsten Armor
1 Heavy Cladding
Cost: 251e (113e) / 37m / 103v / 24a / 0t / 83s
IS Rating: 11 / IP Speed: 4 / Power: 51 / Heat: -2
Init: 1 / Dodge: 0 [PROP3] / Missile: 3 / Armor: 20 / Shield: 2
Horrendously expensive but EM Total Damage: 448, now with more Armor, Missile Defenses, Shields and a balanced Dodge. Each laser will do 112 damage a shot uncoupled, so there's no real point in combining them when you can one-shot four separate things instead. You have armor? Screw your armor! MORE POWERRR!!!
As a long-term strategy, Refining the design and getting a Space Elevator up is a huge priority, as you can then crank these out at 25e a pop. Depending on the cost of a Space Elevator, you'll make back the costs within 6-10 units and can just keep producing them. Volatiles will be the big limit on this particular design.
Pretty sure he's talking about my Fleet, which uses almost no volatiles, and mostly can't even go anywhere.
Pffffft. Assuredly Kal is a machine who works at a speed so rapid as to have simulated battles against every single fleet that has been submitted. Both our fleets are therefore incredibly awesome.
Pffffft. Assuredly Kal is a machine who works at a speed so rapid as to have simulated battles against every single fleet that has been submitted. Both our fleets are therefore incredibly awesome.
I have Simulated Symphony D's Fleet and Matt0088 Intrusion fleet. Symphony D's fleet beat my 4 ships (particle, laser, command, missile), the use of the satellites was interesting.... Against Matts intrusion fleet I won, but I lost a command/laser and missile ship (indeed the laser and missile ship were captured!). Probably because Matts swung it so that hes got a freakishly high boarding skill and I can't slag his ship ships fast enough.
Got pretty lucky in both battles with rolls too! (i.e. the missile ship eventually blew up ALL of matts intrusion units)
I've just LOOKED at matts raven fleet and it already troubles me. I'm going to game them today.
Tactics and stuff for the above
Matt0088 was easy: Swarm everything, although I probably should have fled more with the missile ship and let them trickle in to it, especially when the command ship was lost and it was the only one with int.
Symphony D's fleet composition was difficult:
The platforms couldn't move.
There was a bunch of stuff that his ships couldn't hit etc so I did:
Everything attack the command ship first
Then the missile ship
Then ideally would retreat and bring the close range ships into the teeth of the Spear sats (would have ripped Particle/laser to pieces)
That didn't work out, so just attempted to blast the laser ship to bits and then flee the particle ship.
This worked out really well, made a couple of mistakes => should have engaged the command ship with some stuff in ROUND 1 to kill it off properly. Light Transport should have fled in ROUND 1.
QUESTIONS THAT HAVE ARISEN FROM THOSE TWO SIMULATIONS:
Q's
Fleet Command bonus, applies to Command Ship? Command Deck has an int bonus to ship, but Command staff do not.
Interceptors and Kinetic Lances? I played it yes, but I wasn't clear if it was busters that could be intercepted or everything in the missile class (including other interceptors!)
Jammers, Entire battlefield? Are they Long range/Short range? Cumaltive or highest debuff? Can you get -ve int? (Symphony D's simulation was played with -ve int, and Matt0088 was played without I felt it hindered swarm tactics but...*shrug*)
Ended Jammer debuff in the phase immediately after the jammer was destroyed OR in the ROUND after it was destroyed?
How Long does the int Debuff from particle weapon hits last?
Missile damage error, can get -ve health dmg
-ve armour BREAKS Beam damage SO bad (maybe you should do max of armour or 1 on the bottom of that calculation, -4 breaks it, -5 and up means you cannot do damage).
Platforms can still technically engage ships with 0 speed! (instead of being infinitely faster)
What happens to captured ships at the end of the battle if the rest of their fleet is wiped out?
It is WAY to easy for boarded ships to be destroyed, Maybe make it more difficult to get Ship to ship of 20ish, or just bump up all the need probabilities? Needs balancing out a bit more...
Matt0088 was easy: Swarm everything, although I probably should have fled more with the missile ship and let them trickle in to it, especially when the command ship was lost and it was the only one with int.
Symphony D's fleet composition was difficult:
The platforms couldn't move.
There was a bunch of stuff that his ships couldn't hit etc so I did:
Everything attack the command ship first
Then the missile ship
Then ideally would retreat and bring the close range ships into the teeth of the Spear sats (would have ripped Particle/laser to pieces)
That didn't work out, so just attempted to blast the laser ship to bits and then flee the particle ship.
This worked out really well, made a couple of mistakes => should have engaged the command ship with some stuff in ROUND 1 to kill it off properly. Light Transport should have fled in ROUND 1.
QUESTIONS THAT HAVE ARISEN FROM THOSE TWO SIMULATIONS:
Q's
Fleet Command bonus, applies to Command Ship? Command Deck has an int bonus to ship, but Command staff do not.
Interceptors and Kinetic Lances? I played it yes, but I wasn't clear if it was busters that could be intercepted or everything in the missile class (including other interceptors!)
Jammers, Entire battlefield? Are they Long range/Short range? Cumaltive or highest debuff? Can you get -ve int? (Symphony D's simulation was played with -ve int, and Matt0088 was played without I felt it hindered swarm tactics but...*shrug*)
Ended Jammer debuff in the phase immediately after the jammer was destroyed OR in the ROUND after it was destroyed?
How Long does the int Debuff from particle weapon hits last?
Missile damage error, can get -ve health dmg
-ve armour BREAKS Beam damage SO bad (maybe you should do max of armour or 1 on the bottom of that calculation, -4 breaks it, -5 and up means you cannot do damage).
Platforms can still technically engage ships with 0 speed! (instead of being infinitely faster)
What happens to captured ships at the end of the battle if the rest of their fleet is wiped out?
It is WAY to easy for boarded ships to be destroyed, Maybe make it more difficult to get Ship to ship of 20ish, or just bump up all the need probabilities? Needs balancing out a bit more...
Symphony D.
Deity
If I was to rebuild the MDF I would get rid of all Shrikes, Kites, and Raptors and mass-field this (Refined) in their places:
Shrike II AEF:
2 Metal Capacitors
4 Pulse Drives
1 Fusion Buster
Cost: 38e (17e) / 19m / 10v / 0a / 0t / 18s
Size: 21 / Mass: 16
IS Rating: 0 / IP Speed: 5 / Range: 0 / Power: 0 / Heat: -3
Init: 0 / Dodge: 6 / Missile: 0 / Armor: 1 / Shield: 0
Success rate might suck but you're going to have a lot of opportunities to get through, and you don't need many. Kinetic Lances look totally useless; you can't mass them in numbers for damage to be worth hauling them around. Hoping for a lucky roll on the nukes seems a much better bet.
The Owl and Eagle also look fairly useless in and of themselves except as cannon fodder. Firepower is clearly less important for the ships than harassment to keep Pikes and Spears alive—might be worth just going all Shrike II/Spear/Pike.
Shrike II AEF:
2 Metal Capacitors
4 Pulse Drives
1 Fusion Buster
Cost: 38e (17e) / 19m / 10v / 0a / 0t / 18s
Size: 21 / Mass: 16
IS Rating: 0 / IP Speed: 5 / Range: 0 / Power: 0 / Heat: -3
Init: 0 / Dodge: 6 / Missile: 0 / Armor: 1 / Shield: 0
Success rate might suck but you're going to have a lot of opportunities to get through, and you don't need many. Kinetic Lances look totally useless; you can't mass them in numbers for damage to be worth hauling them around. Hoping for a lucky roll on the nukes seems a much better bet.
The Owl and Eagle also look fairly useless in and of themselves except as cannon fodder. Firepower is clearly less important for the ships than harassment to keep Pikes and Spears alive—might be worth just going all Shrike II/Spear/Pike.
Kinetic Lances are NOT buster missiles though, and buster missiles take extra -ve's to hit. With no int Shrike II cannot hit anything with a dodge of 3 or more.
On the Pikes and Spears issue, try mixing some long range particle sat's in there.
Symphony D.
Deity
I'm afraid I've no idea what this term means.
Have not tested matts raven fleet: Under normal rules they will wipe out my fleet (and most fleets at that). However, Both long range particle weapons have 'low chance to hit' in their description, not included in the battle calculator so I left them. Finally, I think particle and beam weapons need to have something to place a cap on the bonus to hit from -ve dodge opponents (at the moment -4/-3 times a -ve dodge is a HUGE bonus!). Maybe make it worse than missiles: missiles can auto-correct their course, beam and particle cannot....
Having looked at the potential ship designs:
Laser ships are heavy (low dodge) and hence lend themselves to heavy armour and shield designs.
Missile Ships tend to have medium weight and hence medium stats (int, dodge, armour, shield)
Particle Ships tend to have light weight, and high dodge (low armour, shield, int).
In turn:
Particle is best used against High Dodge opponents, or High Int opponents
Laser is best used against medium dodge opponents (less than 4 dodge with no int modifiers)
Missile is best used against low dodge opponents, low int opponents (with or without heavy armour/shields).
So particle vs uhmm everything. Missile beats Laser at long range, Laser and Missile close up will tear each other to pieces.
Solutions: Make beam hit HIGH dodge targets, make particle hit Medium Dodge targets swap => Dodge*IF(Range="L";4;1) for laser with Dodge*IF(Range="L";3;0.5)
That way: particle beats High Int and medium dodge, Missile beats low dodge (via high int etc), and laser beats High Dodge.
Having looked at the potential ship designs:
Laser ships are heavy (low dodge) and hence lend themselves to heavy armour and shield designs.
Missile Ships tend to have medium weight and hence medium stats (int, dodge, armour, shield)
Particle Ships tend to have light weight, and high dodge (low armour, shield, int).
In turn:
Particle is best used against High Dodge opponents, or High Int opponents
Laser is best used against medium dodge opponents (less than 4 dodge with no int modifiers)
Missile is best used against low dodge opponents, low int opponents (with or without heavy armour/shields).
So particle vs uhmm everything. Missile beats Laser at long range, Laser and Missile close up will tear each other to pieces.
Solutions: Make beam hit HIGH dodge targets, make particle hit Medium Dodge targets swap => Dodge*IF(Range="L";4;1) for laser with Dodge*IF(Range="L";3;0.5)
That way: particle beats High Int and medium dodge, Missile beats low dodge (via high int etc), and laser beats High Dodge.
1. Cannot cost the refined computer modules
2. has an IP and IS speed of 0!
3. No range (but even on defence, IS, IP = 0!)
1. TOO HOT!
2. no range
1. How to cost refined comp modules?
Design still works with unrefined comp modules though.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Hmm. They seemed fine in my ship designer. Let me look into it.
Maybe I am using the wrong version of the ship designer. That would suck.
Maybe I am using the wrong version of the ship designer. That would suck.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
My concern with Commlinks is that 1 Comp Module + Commlinks adds 1 Fleet Int, but 2 Comp Modules + Commlinks doesn't seem to add any Fleet Int at all.
Symphony, you should try experimenting with refined Ion Cannons on some of your larger particle designs.
Symphony, you should try experimenting with refined Ion Cannons on some of your larger particle designs.
Frozen In Ice
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,536
@Dis: The Daredaro will prefer plains
Here is my first attempt at a fleet, I don't think this turned out too well, but we'll see.
"DSF Electric Eel"
3x Manifold drive
9x Metal Capacitors
4x Pulse Drive
1x Recycler
8x External Hangars
2x Computer Modules
1x Command Deck
1x Command Staff
1x Comlinks
1x Scanner
1x Jammer
1x EW Broadcaster
Cost: 132e
Tactics: Has no weapons, but is a carrier that drops off stingrays, then retreats and makes EW attacks.
"DSF Stingray"
4x Metal Capacitors
2x Pulse Drives
1x Recyclers
2x Microwave Lasers
3x Tungsten Armor
Cost: 39e, 18e refined
Tactics: Gang up all on one ship
So I can have a fleet of 2 Electric eels and 10 Stingrays after thet are refined.
Here is my first attempt at a fleet, I don't think this turned out too well, but we'll see.
"DSF Electric Eel"
3x Manifold drive
9x Metal Capacitors
4x Pulse Drive
1x Recycler
8x External Hangars
2x Computer Modules
1x Command Deck
1x Command Staff
1x Comlinks
1x Scanner
1x Jammer
1x EW Broadcaster
Cost: 132e
Tactics: Has no weapons, but is a carrier that drops off stingrays, then retreats and makes EW attacks.
"DSF Stingray"
4x Metal Capacitors
2x Pulse Drives
1x Recyclers
2x Microwave Lasers
3x Tungsten Armor
Cost: 39e, 18e refined
Tactics: Gang up all on one ship
So I can have a fleet of 2 Electric eels and 10 Stingrays after thet are refined.
Frozen In Ice
Emperor
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,536
Actually now that you mention this my Electric carrier ship does give less Fleet Int with 2 comp modules instead of 1.
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