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Proofs that God is imaginary

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by eastsidebagel, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. Integral

    Integral Can't you hear it?

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    Perhaps we're using different definitions of proof. I would consider any of the standard a priori or a posteriori proofs sufficient for proving or disproving God's existence, if any were strong enough. Your proof seems to require a direct action by God. I would contend that this is sufficient but not necessary. :)
     
  2. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Considering the weight and consequences of the question, I think the weight of the proof has to be equally high. ;)
     
  3. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    That's not a proof - that's just philisophical pandering that gets you nowhere.

    Why? Because aside from "Oh, he's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnivenevolent", you've got nothing else to work with.. And that's incredibly vague.

    Why do you have nothing else to work with? Because God is magical and can do anything. Any sort of proof can be countered with "Oh, he works in mysterious ways" nonsense.

    The definition is way too vague for you to be able to prove his inexistence.

    It'd be like trying to prove that unicorns don't exist. Impossible. And they are even clearly defined!
     
  4. Integral

    Integral Can't you hear it?

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    I'll not deny that pinning down omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence is a tricky proposition. However, assuming that you can get someone to commit to particular definitions of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence, it may well be possible to show that the current state of affairs is simply inconsistent with those definitions. It will then be necessary for that person to either abandon their commitment to a traditional monotheist God or modify their ideas about God's attributes (which amounts to the same thing).
     
  5. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Have you ever seen anyone successfully convince a believer that their idea of God does not exist, on philisophical grounds alone?

    And even if you did, what you said is exactly what would happen - they would just go "Oh.. well, I guess I was wrong about some of God's attributes"

    and, back to square one. God is not disproven - only redefined.
     
  6. fishjie

    fishjie omghi2u

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    its a step in the right direction.

    most ppl who transition from believer to atheist do so in gradual steps. they keep redefining god until it is no longer then one that a typical fundamentalist worships.

    its a legit strategy that's worked time and time again.
     
  7. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    [citation needed]

    cause my athnostic moment was more of a "hey.. wait a second!" type thing.
     
  8. fishjie

    fishjie omghi2u

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    oh. well if you go on various websites like ex-christian.net they have "testimonials" of how they turned atheist. many of them did so in such a slow manner, where they had to keep redefining god as they struggled to come up with various rationalizations for their beliefs. also in the book "losing faith in faith from preacher to atheist" by freedom from religion president dan barker, he was a former fundie and he described his transformation into atheism as a slow gradual manner.
     
  9. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    This is only valid if we assume that God operates on the same level of justification and consciousness that we do. Perhaps he can see a picture bigger than we can possibly comprehend? He is, after all, God.
     
  10. Xyan

    Xyan Cyber Monk

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    With claims like us being in his image, it makes no sense to be operating on a different level of justification and consciousness. If I am to create something I would care about, that object will fit into my mode of understanding and rationalism.
     
  11. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    Why doesn't it? Where does God say "and you will be as smart and wise as I?" He just says we look like him, ferchrissake.

    Of course, you're not God. There's no reason to believe that God operates at the same level of consciousness that we do. It would be like expecting a monkey to be able to comprehend why he's put in the room with all the buttons; maybe he might get a tiny bit of it, but he's never going to have a clue about the research and other reasons we put him in the room with the fancy buttons to play with, because he's not mentally capable of operating at the level necessary to understand it.
     
  12. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken 99 117 110 116 115

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    The human mind is the pinnacle of understanding capability, as are our senses in the field of sensing! Do not question it, for it is beyond your level of understanding and possibly sensing.
     
  13. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    'scratches head' could of sworn I made this thread already 'wanders off'
     
  14. Kerozine

    Kerozine Deity

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    The concept of 'God' was created by man to account for the human condition -- the meaning of our existence. :coffee:
     
  15. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    we created god to account for what we could not explain
     
  16. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Maybe we aint God's highest priority, or maybe God started everything in motion and doesn't control events.

    Should have addressed it to Christians ;)

    What is a myth? A lie, a falsehood, or just a story about some past event so long ago the facts are harder to discern.

    The Bible doesn't say Mt Everest was covered, only several meters above the local hills. Given the fact the Persian Gulf was a lush river valley during the ice age due to lower sea levels a rapid rise of 20-40 ft would be devastating. The Black Sea was flooded by both fresh and sea water, first when glaciers up north melted and then by the Mediterranean breaching the Bosphorus. The Tlingit of Alaska believe the Flood happened 14 kya, thats very close to events marking the end of the last ice age. As for animals, smart people might conclude the Ark contained domesticated animals living in that immediate area.

    In the Sumerian version Enlil sought to keep an impending natural disaster secret, his older half brother Enki told Zuisudra (?) how to survive it. This pair of Gods are behind much of the conflict between the biblical God and Serpent. Ea/Enki is the serpent, he is the god of wisdom but he's second fiddle to Enlil. It was he and his wife who created humans from an already existing creature roaming his Absu. Enlil took some for pets (Adam and Eve) and Enki taught them how to procreate much to Enlil's displeasure.

    There's all sorts of examples in the Bible of God being ignorant, and less than all powerful.

    No free will?
     
  17. Xyan

    Xyan Cyber Monk

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    We are not God's priority. According to Terry Pratchett, it's the mighty beetle.
     
  18. Xyan

    Xyan Cyber Monk

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    Ah... we are part of a research program then. Cold, objective, research.

    If we are not, and is instead loved like our pet monkey, I would not subject my monkey to the risk of dangerous buttons. And if I love my monkey, I will make a little more effort training my pet to be a little more intelligent. Teaching pet dogs tricks takes more effort.

    Conclusion I get from your reasoning = We are NOT loved. We are like an ant the playful boy burns with a lighter just to see the ants scream.

    And we don't have to be smarter than a creator, but we have to operated under the same moral standards. But it is apparently not so.
     
  19. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    :confused: And although I support your conclusion, any logical arguement leading up to it is, once again, totally lacking.

    And I haven't seen yet any conclusive 'proof' of God's existence or non-existence. (And that includes everything posted on this thread - and similar threads - so far. There's nothing new about people publishing "Proofs that God is imaginary", nor the opposite; theologians have published "Proofs that God is real" ever since the Middle Ages - just Ask A Theologian.)

    We may theorize on the attributes of God, but there's no conclusive evidence to the effect that 'he' is male, good, omipotent, omniscient or whatever attribute humans may attribute to a divine entity. There is simply nothing conclusive to be said on the subject. Without an undeniable definition of what 'God' is, everything statable amounts to nothing but pure speculation.
     
  20. sourboy

    sourboy Awakening...

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