Proofs that God is imaginary

I've seen quite a lot of people who consider themselves atheist/non-religious Jews.

If that position is to make sense, it must be that they regard Jewishness as a cultural category. One could obviously be culturally Jewish without following the Jewish religion, because there is more to Jewish culture than the Jewish religion (although the boundary lines are rather hard to identify). Of course that's a big simplification, because there are many different Jewish cultures, but still.

If they mean that Jewishness is not about culture or religion, but a purely biological category, then that's not supportable. Jewishness can't itself be a race because there are Jews of many different races. That's why antisemitism (in the sense of prejudice against Jews) is not a form of racism.

And I am sorry if you feel discussions such as these are going nowhere (I must admit that to me personally discussions often appear to do just that), but for me I find it intellectually quite stimulating to be able to exchange thoughts with a theologian, as I'm not often able to debate with academically schooled people in my daily life.

I'm glad of that at least: and indeed even though I may often appear impatient I'm glad to have the occasion to try to put my thoughts in order, unconvincing as the result may often appear.

Anyway, I haven't suggested morality as having no meaning on a personal level; it is, however, different from morality at the social level.

That may be true, but I don't really see why it's relevant to what we were talking about (whatever it was).

While it is quite feasible to discuss morality for the latter, whatever a person might say he'd do in some personal case, may differ from what he actually does when a situation actually occurs. (I might claim to act heroically in a crisis, but who's to say I can live up to such a claim?

This is obviously true, but it applies at the social level as well - a society may think it would behave in a certain way in a certain situation, but in the event it doesn't. In fact this disjunction probably underlies various national myths, such as the myth that during the Blitz everyone in London was terribly calm and stoic and good-natured, when in fact they were all running around panicking, looting shops, and crushing each other to death in Tube stations. But that's not how the British like to think they would behave.

That's also why I prefer actual cases above hypothetical situations; in the latter case, argument might go on indefinitely without any valid conclusion.

You can still consider such cases and accurately report your intuitions about them, though, can't you? That's the sole purpose of thought experiments. They are supposed to be concrete examples to think about and consider what your intuitions are. That gives you the data from which you can extrapolate your general intuitions.

Anyway, again I'm not really clear on how we got into this or why it's relevant.

That's simply not what I said: I apologize if you took this personally, but I see no mention here of why an agnostic should be less able to talk about morality.

Well then, what did you mean when you said that "An agnost[ic] should know better, though, than to point a moral finger"? Can you rephrase this in a non-metaphorical way?

Ignoring your combination of two different statements (responding to equally different statements of yours, I believe), this reminds me of an earlier discussion on your thread concerning whether religion constitutes knowledge. But religious experiences, which you mentioned just above, can't be considered scientific fact; they do not fall into the category of a repeatable experiment, so to say.

You keep using the term "scientific fact". I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean a claim that can be established by the scientific method of hypothesis and experiment? But there are plenty of claims that can't be established in that way - such as historical claims, or subjective ones such as "I don't like cheese" - and we don't normally have a problem accepting such claims as meaningful or even true. Now the claim "Julian of Norwich had a vision of the crucified Christ" cannot be established or tested by the scientific method, but then neither can the claim "Caesar crossed the Rubicon". So I don't really see what your objection is to claims about religious experiences - they are no more or less problematic, as established phenomena, than any other historical occurrences.

Besides this, there are obviously other features of the world, apart from religious experiences, that theists have used to rationally ground theism. And some of these features are things that have been established by the scientific method, such as the operation of certain physical laws or the identification of certain constants in physics. Some theists have argued that the best explanation for these features is the existence of God. Whether that's a good argument or not needn't detain us here - the point is that that is a way of basing a religious claim upon scientific facts in this sense.

And to illustrate my point: Darwin's theories, which mostly have become accepted as scientifically plausible, pointed to the scientific fact that the earth and heavens couldn't have been created in 6 days, as the Bible claims. That believers appear to hold certain religious doctrines for scientific fact (whether illustrated or not), seems to me quite irrelevant. What constitutes scientific fact isn't determined by the faitful, but by scientific method. (Believers who like to think creationism or Intelligent Design are valid theories based upon scientific fact, seem to me simply not to have grasped what Darwin's theories are actually about, as they do not address the issue of creation or the existence of God at all. In fact, Darwin's case is a prime example of religion not being affected by scientific fact; to many believers such facts are quite irrelevant compared to their faith.)

Now here you seem to be using a completely different definition of "scientific fact", to mean a claim that is consistent with well-established scientific theories. Taken in that sense, most of what you say here is reasonable. But it's confusing to switch from one definition to another like this. So I'm not really sure precisely what you're trying to say.

We have, really, two types of religion to talk about. One of them is 'God is truth' religion, which reads their scriptures and what is in the scriptures is the true word of God so everything else is either a lie or put there by God to cover up his existance, and the other is the sort which doesn't follow a scripture as such, but simply belives that the world is run by some higher power. The former can be disproved; any error in the scriptures makes it redundant to almost any logical person, but the latter can't actually, and so scientific facts make no difference there.

That's a bit simplistic! There are rather a lot of forms that religion takes apart from raving fundamentalism and vague deism, you know. Such as mainstream Christianity, or indeed most other mainstream religions. Where, for example, would you place someone like Rowan Williams in your scheme?
 
If that position is to make sense, it must be that they regard Jewishness as a cultural category. One could obviously be culturally Jewish without following the Jewish religion, because there is more to Jewish culture than the Jewish religion (although the boundary lines are rather hard to identify). Of course that's a big simplification, because there are many different Jewish cultures, but still.

If they mean that Jewishness is not about culture or religion, but a purely biological category, then that's not supportable. Jewishness can't itself be a race because there are Jews of many different races. That's why antisemitism (in the sense of prejudice against Jews) is not a form of racism.

They regard it as an ethnic category.
 
That's a bit simplistic! There are rather a lot of forms that religion takes apart from raving fundamentalism and vague deism, you know. Such as mainstream Christianity, or indeed most other mainstream religions. Where, for example, would you place someone like Rowan Williams in your scheme?

I know' but I'm trying to point out that if a religion is based on scripture, then it can be disproved, but if not it can't. If you have a scripture, but don't say that it is neccessarily true, then you fall into the non-disprovable category.
 
They regard it as an ethnic category.

If that doesn't mean either biology or culture, I don't know what it means.

I know' but I'm trying to point out that if a religion is based on scripture, then it can be disproved, but if not it can't. If you have a scripture, but don't say that it is neccessarily true, then you fall into the non-disprovable category.

Not necessarily, because religions can (and usually are) based on things other than scripture, such as tradition, church teaching, reason, personal experience, etc. All of these things might be testable to varying degrees and so not beyond the bounds of disproveability. So you can't just rank the testability of a religion upon a sliding scale of its attitude to its scriptures - it's more complicated than that.
 
Fair point. As a general rule, though, if it has some form of tradition or mythology you can test it, if not you can't.
 
Anyway, again I'm not really clear on how we got into this or why it's relevant.

If the both of us are unclear of any relevance, perhaps this is a good time to take you up on your offer to move this discussion to the Ask a Theologian thread. As I have no intention in monopolizing someone else's thread with our dialogue and like to get back on topic here, I take it you don't mind. (I'm copying your reply here into my answer there.)
 
If that doesn't mean either biology or culture, I don't know what it means.

Well, "ethnicity" is a less biological category then "race", but it definitely has some biological component.
 
Returning to topic: Proofs that God is imaginary.

As I said, I don't think this can be proven or denied, but I would like to mention one thing. (Alright, two...)

1. God is greater than the universe
2. The universe (as far as we currently know) is immense.

Which raises multiple questions:

1. Why would a Supreme Being have any special interest in one planet of one star system among countless others?
2. What do we need with an otherwise empty universe?
3. What would a Supreme Being need with a virtually empty universe?
4. What if there are other universes? (Multi-verse theory)

Within this context I'd like to remind of the following definition of God:

"that which is infinite, eternal, permanent and unchanging."
 
Which raises multiple questions:

1. Why would a Supreme Being have any special interest in one planet of one star system among countless others?

More specifically, why does he only like 144000 of us? I just love the idea of a God who takes time out from ruling the universe to teach 11 people about himself - that's good management.
 
Returning to topic: Proofs that God is imaginary.

As I said, I don't think this can be proven or denied, but I would like to mention one thing. (Alright, two...)

1. God is greater than the universe
2. The universe (as far as we currently know) is immense.

Which raises multiple questions:

1. Why would a Supreme Being have any special interest in one planet of one star system among countless others?
2. What do we need with an otherwise empty universe?
3. What would a Supreme Being need with a virtually empty universe?
4. What if there are other universes? (Multi-verse theory)

Within this context I'd like to remind of the following definition of God:
1. Why not? Why wouldn't a creator find interest in his creation?
2. Is it really empty? If an election of an atom could think it probably thing the exact same thing.
3. God could ask why did man wasted billions of dollars flying to the moon. There was no need for us to fly to a dead rock. We had plenty of rocks here already.
 
More specifically, why does he only like 144000 of us? I just love the idea of a God who takes time out from ruling the universe to teach 11 people about himself - that's good management.

I am using a generally accepted concept of "God", rather than a denomination-specific one. Indeed, I am considering God as a philosophical concept, rather than as a religion-specific one.

1. Why not? Why wouldn't a creator find interest in his creation?
2. Is it really empty? If an election of an atom could think it probably thing the exact same thing.
3. God could ask why did man wasted billions of dollars flying to the moon. There was no need for us to fly to a dead rock. We had plenty of rocks here already.

Ad 1) That's not the point. Rather: Why would God find special interest in one planet among countless others (all of which would be his creation)?
Ad 2) This is a rhetorical question and related to the 1st; I am not supposing the universe be empty, but so far we appear to be the only humanoids around. (I am not speculating as to whether electrons could think for reasons of relevance.)

Ad 3) I am uncertain as to why you ask this question; although it seems related to 1 and 2, so I will refer you back to those. (But, as a counter-question: With such a vast and seemingly empty universe, why should man stick to this one planet?)

Once again, I'd like to bring in mind the definition of God as that which is infinite, eternal, permanent and unchanging.

(This may seem to lack certain attributes as to generally associated with God in a Christian concept, but the concept of such a supreme being is present in other cultures as well. So far "God" is predominantly taken as the Christian form of the concept, which I find both too limiting and not very helpful - seeing as that there is not a universal Christian definition of God. Since all cultures seem to have a creation myth, God as creator of the universe seems a safe enough attribute to include in a definition of God.
 
1. Why would a Supreme Being have any special interest in one planet of one star system among countless others?

Why is it entailed by your philosophical, non-denominational concept of "God" that he does? Why shouldn't we think of God as being equally interested in all of them?

Moreover, I see nothing problematic about the claim anyway. Perhaps there is something special about this planet, such as the fact that life has evolved here. Perhaps God finds that especially interesting.

Even if there is nothing special about this planet, it's still perfectly possible for God to take a special interest in it nevertheless. There are countless women in the world but I take a special interest in just one of them. That doesn't mean there's anything special about her that makes her superior to all other women.

2. What do we need with an otherwise empty universe?

I don't understand this question or see why it's relevant. Are you assuming that this philosophical, non-denominational God must create only what is useful to human beings? Why assume that?

3. What would a Supreme Being need with a virtually empty universe?

God by definition doesn't need anything, whether it's virtually empty or not. He creates by his own free choice.

I assume by "virtually empty" you mean the fact that most of the universe is empty space, despite the unimaginably vast number of stars and planets it contains. For all we know, a universe that immense has to consist of mostly empty space - perhaps a fuller universe is literally impossible.

Alternatively, why assume that God prefers filled space to empty space? Is that entailed by the philosophical, non-denominational definition of God?

4. What if there are other universes? (Multi-verse theory)

What if there are? Would it make much difference? Would it be any more or less theologically troubling/interesting/irrelevant than the existence of other galaxies within our own universe?

Flying Pig said:
I just love the idea of a God who takes time out from ruling the universe to teach 11 people about himself - that's good management.

That's not what Christians or anyone else believe.

Also, why do people on teh internetzzzz always say they "love" opinions which they're mocking? That makes no sense to me.
 
Returning to topic: Proofs that God is imaginary.

As I said, I don't think this can be proven or denied, but I would like to mention one thing. (Alright, two...)

1. God is greater than the universe
2. The universe (as far as we currently know) is immense.

Which raises multiple questions:

1. Why would a Supreme Being have any special interest in one planet of one star system among countless others?
2. What do we need with an otherwise empty universe?
3. What would a Supreme Being need with a virtually empty universe?
4. What if there are other universes? (Multi-verse theory)

Within this context I'd like to remind of the following definition of God: that which is infinite, eternal, permanent, unchanging

Why is it entailed by your philosophical, non-denominational concept of "God" that he does? Why shouldn't we think of God as being equally interested in all of them?

Moreover, I see nothing problematic about the claim anyway. Perhaps there is something special about this planet, such as the fact that life has evolved here. Perhaps God finds that especially interesting.

Even if there is nothing special about this planet, it's still perfectly possible for God to take a special interest in it nevertheless. There are countless women in the world but I take a special interest in just one of them. That doesn't mean there's anything special about her that makes her superior to all other women.

Ad 1) "Why shouldn't we think of God as being equally interested in all of them?" Indeed. (But why then do you counter this by posing God may very well have special interest in Earth only?) Your analogy is flawd, though: any woman may be special, therefore intrinsically (or implicitly) is. Also, this would suggest there may be other planets that have God's interest. (Which is what I'm getting at.)

I don't understand this question or see why it's relevant. Are you assuming that this philosophical, non-denominational God must create only what is useful to human beings? Why assume that?

Ad 2) No, my questions are interrelated. And I'd like to add your counter-question, actually (as it is logically raised by the original question).

God by definition doesn't need anything, whether it's virtually empty or not. He creates by his own free choice.

I assume by "virtually empty" you mean the fact that most of the universe is empty space, despite the unimaginably vast number of stars and planets it contains. For all we know, a universe that immense has to consist of mostly empty space - perhaps a fuller universe is literally impossible.

Alternatively, why assume that God prefers filled space to empty space? Is that entailed by the philosophical, non-denominational definition of God?

Ad 3)I depart from the given that the universe is created. (What happens before, however interesting, I do not consider. Although, ofcourse, it is very interesting indeed: What was the situation before creation? Is there a circle of creation and destruction? See 4.). Also, if God is omnipotent, I see no problem with a full universe (or more); but omnipotent is an attribute not present in the definition quoted.

What if there are? Would it make much difference? Would it be any more or less theologically troubling/interesting/irrelevant than the existence of other galaxies within our own universe?

Ad 4) Perhaps not. If God created the universes or other inhabited galaxies within our own, there might very well be other inhabited planets worthy of God's special interest. Patience might very well be a Godly attribute - rather than unchanging.
 
Ad 1) "Why shouldn't we think of God as being equally interested in all of them?" Indeed. (But why then do you counter this by posing God may very well have special interest in Earth only?)

Those are meant to be two possible answers to the question - obviously they're not consistent with each other, so the theist would have to choose.

Your analogy is flawd, though: any woman may be special, therefore intrinsically (or implicitly) is. Also, this would suggest there may be other planets that have God's interest. (Which is what I'm getting at.)

To say that something may have a property does not entail that it has that property, either "intrinsically" or "implicitly"! If you love someone it is not because you think they really are better than everyone else - or even because you think that they may be better than everyone else. If you did, you'd think anyone who loved anyone else was mistaken. But that would be ludicrous.

Ad 3)I depart from the given that the universe is created.

If by this you mean you're not assuming that being creator of the universe is part of the definition of God, then what is the relevance of the original question?

What about that time when he spent 33 years watching Jesus?

Orthodox Christians believe that only one person of the Trinity became incarnate in Christ, so whatever happens during the incarnation, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are unaffected. Moreover, they believe that even while God the Son was incarnate, he still performed his cosmic and divine functions, whatever they may be. And finally, they believe that when not incarnate, God is outside time. So it's not like God is sitting there watching the world, then suddenly he's inside Jesus for a few years neglecting everything else, and then suddenly he's back to watching the world again. Rather, he timelessly watches the world (from his perspective), which means that at any given time (from our perspective), God is watching the world - and this applies during the period of the incarnation just as much as at any other time. Because it is true even during that time that, timelessly, God the Son is watching the world, even though it is also true during that time that, temporally, God the Son is incarnate. Moreover, on some models of the incarnation, God the Son remains atemporal even when incarnate - all that happens is that he becomes united to a human being, but the human being is temporal, and the Son remains atemporal. Peter Abelard had a model of the incarnation like this and Brian Leftow has defended one in recent years.

But of course it's much easier to mock the doctrine if you don't bother to find out stuff like that.
 
Well then, perhaps you shouldn't be quite so quick to poke fun at it.

It is always worth taking the time to understand something even if you don't agree with it. That way there might be some small chance of having an intelligent discussion about it. And if you don't understand something, don't pass judgement on it. That way there might be some small chance of avoiding having a stupid discussion about it.
 
Because it is true even during that time that, timelessly, God the Son is watching the world, even though it is also true during that time that, temporally, God the Son is incarnate.

This is the bit I don't understand. Sounds a lot like Popper's ad hoc stuff to me.
 
An interesting thought that my minister at church brought forward today that seems relevant to the thread topic (apologies if it has already been mentioned/dispelled/pondered):

God is a feeling that there is something bigger than us in the universe. The most important part of this sentence would be 'God is a feeling'. Note it is not 'God is like a feeling'. So if God is a feeling, how is He (it?) imaginary?
 
An interesting thought that my minister at church brought forward today that seems relevant to the thread topic (apologies if it has already been mentioned/dispelled/pondered):

God is a feeling that there is something bigger than us in the universe. The most important part of this sentence would be 'God is a feeling'. Note it is not 'God is like a feeling'. So if God is a feeling, how is He (it?) imaginary?

I think a lot of religious people would have a problem if you just wrote off their religious belief as a chemical reaction that happens in certain parts of the brain. But I think this is the case, from what I recall.

And I completely agree with you. God can be as real as the idea of Santa, love and other imaginary things.

Spoiler :

From a South Park episode:

General: If I'm not mistaken, you're the one who bet that leprechauns weren't real. So why do you care what happens?

Kyle: Because I- [catches himself] I... Um... because I think... they are real. It's all real. Think about it. Haven't Luke Skywalker and Santa Claus affected your lives more than most real people in this room? I mean, whether Jesus is real or not, he... he's had a bigger impact on the world than any of us have. And the same could be said of Bugs Bunny and, a-and Superman and Harry Potter. They've changed my life, changed the way I act on the Earth. Doesn't that make them kind of "real." They might be imaginary, but, but they're more important than most of us here. And they're all gonna be around long after we're dead. So in a way, those things are more realer than any of us. [Cartman begins a slow clap, then speeds it up. The techs in the room join in and soon everyone is applauding Kyle's speech]
 
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