Prove God Exists - Version II!

[SolarKnight]

Sorry, I do not mean to offend Birdjaguar.

I do not deny they happen, I know they do, if only in the form of vivid dreams, My fiancee has my support no matter what these occurences are.

They do not occur frequently, all i know is that they occur when a major event occurs, to name a few she knew about, the WTC, her aunt dying , and the death of her horse.

now i know this sounds wierd, but i think it may just be a part of her brain that is more developed than most peoples.

She suffers from dyslexia, so to compensate for her lacking in one area, maybe her mind makes up for it in other areas.

I do not know wether or not this has any link to her dyslexia, or how it happens, all i know is it happens, and when it does, i am here for her support.

SolarKnight

 

[Birdjaguar]

No offense taken solar knight. If you got the wrong impression from my post others probably will also. Maybe it is clearer now. I agree things like that do happen. I cannot explain it and don't try. They are part of living. An unsolved mystery!

 

[SolarKnight]

Don't worry Birdjaguar, Your post is clearer now.

Some things are best not explained i guess, wether or not people want to accept them is another matter, for some the only proof is first hand experience.

SolarKnight.

 

[eyrei]

Just because someone isn't religious eyrei, doesn't mean they can't find happiness in life.

You may find happiness in devoting your life to God, that is what makes you happy, but not me and probably not a lot of people. What makes me happy is that I have friends, and my fiancee and people who respect me, no matter where i go, I will find people who will like me and be friends with me.

I also find enjoyment in furthering myself and pushing myself to the limits, I don't see how worshiping a god that hasn't spoken to me, contacted me or even made himself known to me is going to make life better for me.

I have had a hard life, but I am happy with where i am and how i got there, I don't need to think that there is something or someone watching me to make me happy or make me stronger, there wasn't when i needed them most, and I am sure there isn't now.

Stating that Atheists must have empty and unfulfilling lives is a thought that I find offensive, I have survived best part of 21 years on this planet without god, I am sure that I can survive the rest.

(Just my thoughts, if i offend, I am sorry)

SolarKnight.

You have misinterpreted what I said. I don't believe in God (the Christian, or Mulsim, or Jewish one). Nor do I believe that atheists have empty lives. I am simply mocking the premise of this thread. My god is my own. I don't really feel the need to explain it to anyone. I certainly don't feel the need to validate it by 'whipping' those who believe in religions I consider to be ridiculous.

My only goal in posting here is to make you profound atheists really think about it Athiesm seems to me, in many cases, to be nothing more than a way of rebelling against the organized religions of the world. Sure, Christianity and Judaism and Islam are absurd. That doesn't mean that spirituality is absurd.

 

[FredLC]

Please explain to my wife how she knew our daughter was in trouble five minutes before our daughter called to say she had been in a car accident.

Spider sense?

No, really, I don’t like arguing against “personal experiences” because it always end up in “you weren’t there to know”. Nevertheless, I can come up with some alternative scenarios, yes. First, that “five minutes” wasn’t exactly “five minutes”, but just a short amount of time, that gets more precise as the memory of the event really fades. Not an uncommon thing.

Second, that we live in dangerous times. My mother constantly calls me to ask if everything is ok. 99% of the time, everything is, but the 1% it is not is not enough to demonstrate some 6º sense. I wonder how many times those feelings didn’t met with reality.

Nevertheless, please note that “was in trouble” is a very broad statement. It could be anything, from a car accident to having forget her keys at home, or being late for an important meeting.

My only goal in posting here is to make you profound atheists really think about it Athiesm seems to me, in many cases, to be nothing more than a way of rebelling against the organized religions of the world. Sure, Christianity and Judaism and Islam are absurd. That doesn't mean that spirituality is absurd.

Nah, it’s a stereotype. There are some people who are rebellious, but that is hardly the case of most atheists, and to a much greater extent, not the case of those willing to engage debate. Most of us do it for two reasons – to try opposing logic with lack of logic, in the hope that people will listen to it (because it is somewhat annoying that so many people in the world believes in such absurds), but most of it, to understand why these people think like that, as the refutations are so utterly obvious that it’s hard to swallow that not everyone sees it.

Anyway, pay attention to what you are saying, Eyrei. You first stereotyped atheism, or at least the behavior of atheists, as rebellion. Than judged three of the largest religions of the world as absurd ones. Than stated that your set of believes is not.

Isn’t that exactly what every of those “absurd” religions do? Isn’t that just as dogmatic, even if there is no revelations in your spirituality? And this without even entering the issue on why would a generic spirituality be less absurd than that of an organized religion…

Just like you, just giving some food for the thought.

Regards .

 

[polymath]

I find those that believe life has a higher purpose, or needs a higher purpose, are merely grappling with vanity, hubris and wish-fulfillment. The only purpose of life as far as I can see is to propagate itself. And even that isn't really a purpose, just a description of what it does.

 

[Smidlee]

Most of us do it for two reasons – to try opposing logic with lack of logic, in the hope that people will listen to it (because it is somewhat annoying that so many people in the world believes in such absurds), but most of it, to understand why these people think like that, as the refutations are so utterly obvious that it’s hard to swallow that not everyone sees it.

Regards .

there is a lot of logic in scriptures but where is the logic in atheism? if athesit truely believes what they say then they have absolute nothing to offer or even purpose. King Solomon wrote a book dealing with this exact issue. He tried everything "under the sun" to find meaning and purpose in this life but came up empty. (phases "under the sun" shows Solomon was dealing with the natural world and human philosophy) Are you trying to open people eyes and for what reason? As Solomon concluded this is vanity since a wise man will die like a fool. why do you want to open someone eyes to vanity or is it "misery loves company"? Even a doctor will give painkillers to those who suffering or give "hard drugs" to someone who is dying with cancer even though this may cloud up their thinking. I hate to say this but even a false hope is better than no hope. ( but of course I know there is true hope in Christ) so people may believe in that which is absurds because they found emptiness in materialism/ humanism( just as Solomon did).

So the philosophy of an atheist is exactly the same as a drunk:
Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

there is a lot of logic in scriptures but where is the logic in atheism? if athesit truely believes what they say then they have absolute nothing to offer or even purpose. King Solomon wrote a book dealing with this exact issue. He tried everything "under the sun" to find meaning and purpose in this life but came up empty. (phases "under the sun" shows Solomon was dealing with the natural world and human philosophy) Are you trying to open people eyes and for what reason? As Solomon concluded this is vanity since a wise man will die like a fool. why do you want to open someone eyes to vanity or is it "misery loves company"? Even a doctor will give painkillers to those who suffering or give "hard drugs" to someone who is dying with cancer even though this may cloud up their thinking. I hate to say this but even a false hope is better than no hope. ( but of course I know there is true hope in Christ) so people may believe in that which is absurds because they found emptiness in materialism/ humanism( just as Solomon did).

So the philosophy of an atheist is exactly the same as a drunk:
Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Can I join this, Fred?

Being an Atheist does not mean one does not have a value system, and it can be virtually identical to that of a Christian. Atheists too have to live in society, so the "philosophy of a drunk" won't get him/her far. What most atheists try to underline is that a value system does not necessarily have to be based on an imaterial, transcendent entity.

He [n.n. Solomon] tried everything "under the sun" to find meaning and purpose in this life but came up empty.
That just may be the point. If you can't find a meaning and purpose of life does not mean we have to attribute it an arbitrary one.

If you look into it, it is a Christian which is guilty of the sin of Pride and an Atheist, for not claiming to be the repository of absolute Truth, is humble.

Edit: spelling

 

[Ballazic]

My answer Curt. Faith. Faith is what it takes. You have faith in people and the universe. Why? Because Faith is neccessary and Life would suck with out it. People are limited and so we have to take blind steps all the time. I understand why faith bothers you. And hey i am wrong what happens to me.....nothing. But you if your wrong your in major trouble.

 

[Halcyon]

So the philosophy of an atheist is exactly the same as a drunk:
Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Even if that were always true, which it is not, then it's still only the basic philosophy of theism in reverse. Theism simply expects you to die before you be merry.

That doesn't mean that spirituality is absurd.

This does depend on how you define spirituality. The worshipry, dogmatic overconfidence and false hope provided by religion is certainly foolish, but the pursuit of the mysterious certainly is not.

There is one thing that those who rightly oppose religiousness should be careful of. We have no idea how many babies are somewhere the dark depths of that stagnant and poisonous bathwater, but we probably don't want to throw them out aswell.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Speaking of babies and bathwater, people everywhere have difficulty seperating god from religion. Because religion is absurd, arbitrary and illogical, they assume that therefore, there is no god. God has nothing to do with earthly religions. Remember, god made the universe, but we made religion You can burn all your Bibles and Korans and Torahs etc, and still have a fullfilling meaningfull spiritual life and a relationship with god. God and religion are completely seperate, one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[FredLC]

Oh, so judgmental. Let’s go through it point by point, shall we?

there is a lot of logic in scriptures but where is the logic in atheism?

No, I’m afraid to say that there is no logic in Bible, at least, nothing logical about the supernatural aspects of it.

Here is logic according to the Merrian Webster:

Main Entry: log•ic
Pronunciation: 'lä-jik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English logik, from Middle French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logikE, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason -- more at LEGEND
1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>
- lo•gi•cian /lO-'ji-sh&n/ noun

As you can witness, logic is about correlating facts and consequences of the facts; establishing connective bridges of causality between peristaltic movements that are witnessed.

Now bible deals with miracles and events that are lacking causality by their very definition. That is the complete anti-thesis of logic. Hence why you religious guys value faith so much – because you need an emotional component so your believes can make sense, as they don’t stand to a pure causal analysis.

I can perfectly understand Eyrei’s take on the issue – his believes are rooted and logic can’t touch them – because he knows what the believes are, and what fundaments it truly has. We can disagree about if such fundaments truly have validity or not, but that’s altogether another issue.

The few logic that bible actually contains is that dealing with some aspects of human relations. And there is nothing extraordinary about it. By the time it was written, humanity was old enough to have established some values of social gathering, and writing them down was no where near extraordinary, specially when we also see some other values that are completely outdated by modern standards (pretty much proving that they were just a description of social dynamics, not a divine dictation).

if athesit truely believes what they say then they have absolute nothing to offer or even purpose.

Here you are almost right. Atheism does not offer anything. It does not provide color to what is colorless. Atheism, in all, is admitted ignorance. Is the acknowledgement that we don’t know the whys of the existence, and accepting that as a fact, without trying to satisfy our wish to know with an answer that has no bases.

Where you are wrong here is by saying that it “does not have anything to propose”. Well, it does. Admitting ignorance does not mean conforming to it. We propose that true knowledge is something that is worth waiting for, and that by admitting our ignorance, we set ourselves free to look for the actual truth, instead of hiding it behind beautiful creative and phony scenery.

I have no problem in saying “I don’t know”, until we actually do, instead of saying “I know, God did it, I just don’t know how”. I need no intermediaries between me and my ignorance, specially because if true answers are actually achievable, intermediaries are just another obstacle to be overcome.

King Solomon wrote a book dealing with this exact issue. He tried everything "under the sun" to find meaning and purpose in this life but came up empty. (phases "under the sun" shows Solomon was dealing with the natural world and human philosophy)

Well, obviously, Solomon needed some help. I can address this very issue myself, and not come out empty. I see value on what is fugacious, in the little thing. I don’t need some transcendental fantasy to be able to enjoy life. Pleasure lies in accomplishments. Immortality, in realizations. I hope to make a good difference in the world, by helping myself, and who I can, when I can. To leave behind me a legacy to be remembered. And why? Not because God ordered me, but because I feel good when people around me feel good.

There is meaning in overcoming our limits;

There is meaning in doing good;

There is meaning in understanding the world;

And it’s a meaning that death can’t steal.

So, my life has much purpose. More, I think, than if I were here to please a judgmental deity.

Are you trying to open people eyes and for what reason?

Freedom. I don’t want to convert anyone. I just know that many people are instructed, from their cradles, that being a servant to God is the only option, the only way to happiness. I want them to know that it’s not true, you can have a fulfilled and worth life also in other ways. So, when they choose whatever they choose, they do it knowing very well all the alternatives.

As Solomon concluded this is vanity since a wise man will die like a fool.

No, he concluded wrongly. Death does not disnature wisdom. Wisdom, knowledge and understanding, they prevail; they go on; and they are the legacy one generation leaves to the other. Wisdom, and the teaching of it, is where true immortality lies.

Only fools dies as fools.

why do you want to open someone eyes to vanity or is it "misery loves company"?

I do not have vanity. And I am not in misery, Smidlee. And as i said, I just want people to know that there is more than one way to see the world, and that none means instant suffering. Let people make conscientious choices regarding their futures.

Even a doctor will give painkillers to those who suffering or give "hard drugs" to someone who is dying with cancer even though this may cloud up their thinking.

Is that what religion is about, than? Masquerading human suffering? Well, I don’t compare physical pain with psychological pain, I think that they are very different... and while both can be castrating, they are so in different ways.

One thing, though – Painkillers, if used only to hide the pain, without a combined effort to end the causes of pain, are a curse as much as a blessing. And it happens that, when it comes to the psychological, you can’t solve the problem without confronting it. Lying will never make you see the truth.

I hate to say this but even a false hope is better than no hope.

I’d disagree from this, even if I thought that atheists are hopeless as you seem to believe – what I obviously don’t.

( but of course I know there is true hope in Christ)

Again, just an opinion.

so people may believe in that which is absurds because they found emptiness in materialism/ humanism( just as Solomon did).

Accuse “materialism” and “humanism” of being empty as much as you want. It will still be just your, or Solomon’s, opinion, not a fact. I disagree altogether.

Materialism is just the acknowledgement of our surrounds, and humanism, in recognizing the human being as the center of our hopes, is where greatness lies. When we stop being servants, and become masters of our own lives. Its emancipation, epiphany, and the path to become Nietzche’s übbermensch.

As I said before, for me it’s the abracadabra that is dull, gray and sorry.

So the philosophy of an atheist is exactly the same as a drunk:
Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

No, despite there is nothing wrong with eating, drinking and being merry.

There is no philosophy in atheism. Atheism is not believing in Gods. No more, no less.

How each atheist handles this godless reality, where we are subject to nothing but the laws of man, and our own consciences, is up to each of’em.

For me, it means that I only have this life, and I better make the best of it. By enhancing myself, mentally and physically. By enhancing the world in all ways I can. By preparing my children to take it where I left and go beyond. And, why not, by eating, drinking and specially, being merry.

Regards .

 

[FredLC]

Can I join this, Fred?

Be my guest.

If you look into it, it is a Christian which is guilty of the sin of Pride and an Atheist, for not claiming to be the repository of absolute Truth, is humble.

Exactly. What does believing in God means, except claiming to have a fundamental knowledge of the fabric of existence? To claim a direct, parental relation with the very causes of universe?

I always considered it hilarius when I saw religious claiming that atheists are "proud" because they refuse to submit to God. To refuse it, we would have to accept it in the first place.

What we do is simply say that we have no close relation, special knowledge or particular understanding about the origin of the existence. Publically admited ignorance, as I said.

The true mark of the humble.

Regards .

 

[Smidlee]

No, I’m afraid to say that there is no logic in Bible, at least, nothing logical about the supernatural aspects of it.

.

Oh great! the battle between definitions. Logic simply means 1) sound reasoning; clear thinking 2) way or method of reasoning 3) a branch of philosophy that deals with reasoning.

Anyone who claim there is no logic in the Bible haven't read it . true it deals with miracles and the supernatural but still most of the bible deals with normal life. There are many books in the bible that has no miracles in them at all.
There been studies done on religion and church in USA that clearly showed the benefit to those who practice their religion . So there are facts to back this and not just my opinion.

 

[FredLC]

Smidlee, there is no battle of definitions. I have excepted in my post that the only logic that exists in bible is the one that deals with trivialities. Only that it's not extraordinary to be logical there.

And I have read the bible, yes. Entirely in a row, only once, but many times if I consider the many excerpts I have read, specially online. I'm a compulsive reader.

Nevertheless one can still make a case if there is really logic when common sense is argued not as common sense, but as divine command.

Regards .

 

[Ballazic]

And there is Fatih guys. I have faith in God. You should to. Its great knowing the truth. Don't miss out.

 

[eyrei]

Nah, it’s a stereotype. There are some people who are rebellious, but that is hardly the case of most atheists, and to a much greater extent, not the case of those willing to engage debate. Most of us do it for two reasons – to try opposing logic with lack of logic, in the hope that people will listen to it (because it is somewhat annoying that so many people in the world believes in such absurds), but most of it, to understand why these people think like that, as the refutations are so utterly obvious that it’s hard to swallow that not everyone sees it.

Anyway, pay attention to what you are saying, Eyrei. You first stereotyped atheism, or at least the behavior of atheists, as rebellion. Than judged three of the largest religions of the world as absurd ones. Than stated that your set of believes is not.

Isn’t that exactly what every of those “absurd” religions do? Isn’t that just as dogmatic, even if there is no revelations in your spirituality? And this without even entering the issue on why would a generic spirituality be less absurd than that of an organized religion…

Just like you, just giving some food for the thought.

Regards .

About the only thing that characterizes my belief system is lack of dogma. I don't know the truth, and don't pretend to. I do, however, seek it. And my seeking is not purely intuitive, nor is it purely logical.

Any of you atheists ever read Kant's "A critique of pure reason"? Or any Carl Jung? You should try it...philosophy/psychology like that is what turned me from an atheist into what I am now. And I honestly think I am happier for the change. Or how about the poetry of W.B. Yeats? Or the "The White Goddess" by Robert Graves? These people sought true meaning outside of what most consider rational thought, but their arguments are not really based on faith.

Anyway, if you stop at atheism, it seems to me you have developed a dogma. You believe you have found Truth so you stop seeking any further. In a way, I think that is as ridiculous as any of the organized faiths.

 

[Free Enterprise]

Exactly. What does believing in God means, except claiming to have a fundamental knowledge of the fabric of existence? To claim a direct, parental relation with the very causes of universe?

If you see this as correct that it is a matter of reality and truth. Understanding various facts do not cause one to cease to be humble.

To refuse it, we would have to accept it in the first place.

To refuse an option means to reject it, to not accept it, or to deny it.

What we do is simply say that we have no close relation, special knowledge or particular understanding about the origin of the existence. Publically admited ignorance, as I said.

The true mark of the humble.

Atheists make definitive claims. An atheist does not believe in the possibility of God's existence. An atheist does not claim to be not sure about certain things regarding reality and the fabric of existence.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

Atheists make definitive claims. An atheist does not believe in the possibility of God's existence. An atheist does not claim to be not sure about certain things regarding reality and the fabric of existence.

Let's diferentiate here.

There are two types of Atheists: strong and weak. The former says "I know there is no God", the latter "I do not to believe in God because there is no or little evidence for his existance".

"I know there is a God" and "I know there is no God" are equally dogmatic.

Your critics are solely aimed at strong Atheism. What have you to say about weak Atheism? (not to confuse it with Agnosticism)

 

[Blasphemous]

FredLC, well said all round.

Faith is neccessary and Life would suck with out it.

Oh really? My life is great as far as I can see, and I have little faith in anything much (except for some values such as Law, Order, Democracy, Freedom, and others).

Its great knowing the truth. Don't miss out.

You're right, it really is great knowing the truth. On the other hand, claiming to know that this crazy concept of "god" is the complete and total truth is just voluntary ignorance under the disguise of ultimate knowledge. Just like Fred said, as a non-believer I choose to openly admit my ignorance of the universe and its ways, and to cherish the little that I think is likely the truth.