No, there's overwork and starvation in the US prison system, too
Punching Nazis
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No, there's overwork and starvation in the US prison system, too
Lexicus
Deity
Sure, but not to the point that it's killed millions of people in a matter of decades. I looked it up, and ~4,400 people die in US prisons per year - most of them do not die from having been worked too much and fed too little.
Lexicus
Deity
Yep. Out of a prison population of somewhere close to two million IIRC. Land of the free right?
Well, a lot of people get life sentences or sentences so long they might as well be life sentences so those people are guaranteed to die in prison. Some people also get some kind of terminal illness like cancer while in prison and the state isn't going to release you just because you got sick so they die in prison as well (although they usually live out their final days in the prison's medical facility and enjoy a mildly better living standard than the rest of the prisoners). Then there are those who die from injuries sustained from gang violence that takes place in prisons. In light of all that, and considering the number of people that are incarcerated in the US, 4400 a year might actually be a pretty low number proportionally. I don't know though as I can't seem to find data for prison deaths for other countries. I can find number of executions, but not total number of deaths that occur in prison.
Yeah, even our per capita incarceration rate is ridiculously high with only Seychelles having a higher per capita incarceration rate.
Reading this thread has been... Surprising. I did not even realize that political violence has such a huge approval rate among CFC members. A few things to note, if I may:
First of all, political violence is highly problematic. The guy who was getting punched, is he really a nazi? Or is he a nazi in the same way that Trump is Hitler (meaning that he isn't, but his political opposition uses that term to slander him)? Even if he is a nazi, does he not have the same rights as everybody else, even if his views are detestable? Turning to political violence seems like a bad idea to me, not least because it is a slippery slope.
Second, we already know from history that "punching nazis" does not work. Nazis were able to gain power in Germany, but it wasn't because of any lack of punching. In fact they got harassed a lot, and in response, they created the Nazi brownshirts to protect them (the brownshirts' mandate quickly exceeded merely protecting their rallies however, as the political violence escalated). In any case, it's not that there weren't violent opposition to nazis back then, there was. It simply did not stop them.
Third, all of this is highly counter-productive. I don't know who that guy, who was getting punched, is. But he has gained a lot of publicity because of this. And even though the publicity is negative, he's still getting it. I can easily imagine him getting at least some new fans that he wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Simply put, punching him doesn't seem like a good strategy. It gets even worse when you consider how this makes you people look. This "evil violent nazi" is minding his own business, conducting an interview (did he explicitly call for violence?) while "the tolerant and peace-loving left" punches him in the face. And then 75 % of the left cheers on and explicitly supports this display of political violence. Whatever happened to the hippie left? Put flowers into gun barrels? If nobody gave a hoot about this guy, then nobody would give a hoot. I find it hard to believe that he is any kind of real threat to democracy.
First of all, political violence is highly problematic. The guy who was getting punched, is he really a nazi? Or is he a nazi in the same way that Trump is Hitler (meaning that he isn't, but his political opposition uses that term to slander him)? Even if he is a nazi, does he not have the same rights as everybody else, even if his views are detestable? Turning to political violence seems like a bad idea to me, not least because it is a slippery slope.
Second, we already know from history that "punching nazis" does not work. Nazis were able to gain power in Germany, but it wasn't because of any lack of punching. In fact they got harassed a lot, and in response, they created the Nazi brownshirts to protect them (the brownshirts' mandate quickly exceeded merely protecting their rallies however, as the political violence escalated). In any case, it's not that there weren't violent opposition to nazis back then, there was. It simply did not stop them.
Third, all of this is highly counter-productive. I don't know who that guy, who was getting punched, is. But he has gained a lot of publicity because of this. And even though the publicity is negative, he's still getting it. I can easily imagine him getting at least some new fans that he wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Simply put, punching him doesn't seem like a good strategy. It gets even worse when you consider how this makes you people look. This "evil violent nazi" is minding his own business, conducting an interview (did he explicitly call for violence?) while "the tolerant and peace-loving left" punches him in the face. And then 75 % of the left cheers on and explicitly supports this display of political violence. Whatever happened to the hippie left? Put flowers into gun barrels? If nobody gave a hoot about this guy, then nobody would give a hoot. I find it hard to believe that he is any kind of real threat to democracy.
I looked up our stats cos I know where they are. For Australia the number is a few dozen, 40-something or 50-something each year. Two-thirds natural causes, most of the remainder are hanging. That's 0.15 deaths per 100 prisoners. BJS has 4400 working out to 243 deaths from all causes per 100,000 prisoners and it excludes executions, so that's 0.24 deaths per 100. 89% of that is from illness, the remainder mostly suicide with about 2.5% being homicide.
The higher death rate (0.15 v 0.24) and the higher portion from illness/natural causes (66% vs 89%) suggest strongly to me that the standard and timeliness of medical care available to prisoners is the significant difference.
It should be noted a quarter of these deaths in Australia are indigenous, which is out of all proportion due to indigenous imprisonment rate but nota higher death rate. Median age is 33 vs 45 for the non-indigenous, though.
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aelf
Ashen One
Did that really achieve anything?
Seems like centrists and moderates just want people to sit down, shut up and let their betters do things. Anything but rational debate (as they conceive of it) is disrespectful and empowers the evil people - satire and mockery are definitely not allowed either. Vote every once in a while, and that's the extent of political participation that is permissible for most people who can't debate like you. If pseudo-Nazis get into power, that's just too bad. Democracy is more important.
Enjoy the unchecked rise of the right wing. You like them more anyway.
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No, we don't want people to sit down and shut up, we want extremists to sit down and shut up so we can go on living our lives and raising our families in peace.
Nah, we don't have a problem with satire and mockery. What we have a problem with is extremists internalizing that satire and mockery and basing their entire way of thinking on it.
Are you saying it isn't? Are you saying you would much rather have a dictatorship as long as it is based on whatever extremist ideology you claim to follow? If so, that more or less delegitimizes any criticism you make of far-right extremists since you are essentially exactly like them, just on the opposite end of the political spectrum.
I mean, just listen to yourself in this entire post. You sound like a child throwing a tantrum because you aren't getting your way. You want to abandon reason, rationality, and peaceful political discourse and transfer of power simply because your side isn't winning. I hate to break it to you, but that makes you just as much of a problem and threat to a free society as the Nazis you claim to fight against.
This seems like a misremembering of the era.
aelf
Ashen One
"Extremists". Almost all protesters are extremists to you.
Apparently satire and mockery are responsible for the rise of the alt-right. I can't tell if you're in agreement with that idea, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Based on your apparent authoritarian tendencies (which, IIRC, extends to family life), I'm sure you'll still be able to keep your cool when fascists rise to power. Again, nobody should be surprised.
Nah, only the ones who think violence is an acceptable form of protest. Thankfully, people like that are still an extreme minority.
Also, it seems odd to me that you seem to be taking offense at being labeled as an extremist since everything in just about all of your posts seem to indicate you are proud of being an extremist. If so, why take offense? Shouldn't you be loudly proclaiming your extremism and taking pride that I am labeling you as such? Or could it be that deep down, you realize that being an extremist is a bad thing and that you are part of the problem?
You didn't answer my questions, so I can only assume you not only think violence against those you disagree with is acceptable, but also that you aren't really committed to democracy and only want "your side" to be in charge. At least we can rest assured that you will most likely never have any actual power or influence in your community, so your extremist thinking won't go any further than your own brain and your rantings here at CFC.
"Unchecked rise of the right wing"? And you think that political violence is the solution to the "unchecked rise of the right wing"? Have a happy punching then, I guess. But there is no way that is going to end well.
Fair enough. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that era was about punching their political opponents into submission either (at least not on the hippie side. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
Which makes me think if all the nazis are the same? I guess not but this is an example of someone you dont need to punch but have him killed instead. Not that it will solve much except perhaps bring some feeling of justice to the families of the death kids which is already something. Whats the point of using logic though? This guy has a twisted mind and he wont be able to come out of the "influence" he is in.
I am strongly of the view that the only actual help would be to allow individual states to grant citizenship. That way the procedure is directly accountable to local elections, thus riots become absurd, while now you have California (or other states) being majority in favour of giving citizenship but go up against the overall federal decision-makers (or, as W put it, 'deciders').
I don't think it is a good idea to just allow people living there as illegals for decades. It harms them first and foremost. And having local elections (state level) decide how many people get citizenship is a viable solution.
Besides, let's note that Democracy itself means power of the Demos, the Demos being the Citizens. It isn't a power of everyone who is in the state regardless of legal standing, nor should it be (cause it is chaotic and helps no one in the long run).
I don't think it is a good idea to just allow people living there as illegals for decades. It harms them first and foremost. And having local elections (state level) decide how many people get citizenship is a viable solution.
Besides, let's note that Democracy itself means power of the Demos, the Demos being the Citizens. It isn't a power of everyone who is in the state regardless of legal standing, nor should it be (cause it is chaotic and helps no one in the long run).
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
Compare ages.
Australia:
Persons aged 25 to 29 years had the highest imprisonment rate (398 prisoners per 100,000 persons aged 25 to 29), followed by persons aged 30 to 34 years (390 prisoners per 100,000 persons aged 30 to 34 years).
US
I don't have the rates, but the largest group is age 36-40.
Australia
Prisoners aged under 25 years accounted for 16% of the total Australian adult prisoner population
US
25 and under account for only 6.5% of the population.
The oldest, there isn't much difference. Australia has 2% of the prison population over 65, the US has 2.5%.
That's the thing about our draconian prison sentences: they result in there being a bunch of middle-aged and even old people in prison, while a civilized country would have released most of them long ago.
aelf
Ashen One
Yes, Trump and Bannon are in power because of the failure of democratic institutions to keep proto-fascists out of power. And the moderates will fail to check him, if most of them are even really interested in doing so.
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