Punching Nazis

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As your argument implies, the left could simply get better at violence. There were places where there were no Nazis because they were violently suppressed. In any case, I don't know of any centralised society that has not used violence to suppress undesired elements.
The learning curve on violence is notoriously steep, and the US left is really not up to the challenge. This is the most heavily armed society on earth, and most weapons are in the hands of the police, the military, and right-wing private citizens, many of whom have very impressive arsenals. Even if the left switched sides on the 2nd amendment, amassed guns of their own over the next couple of decades, and then attempted a violent struggle, the most likely result would be a hellish modern civil war (no clear front lines, terrorist attacks all over the place, a loose coalition of independent left-wing actors which could turn on each other at any moment, and no clear end in sight). They would eventually lose anyway, unless they could manage to take over the state and use its apparatus.

Milder situations of violence, as in the street battles of Weimar, aren't going to go any better for them. It would just result in a series of riots, and the riot police would feel much less compelled to restrain themselves than they are with nonviolent (not to be confused with law-abiding) protesters. Not that they're gentle with ordinary civil disobedience that doesn't involve getting a permit and holding a parade, mind you, but they do usually refrain from using all the fancy military gear that has been sold at a discount to every significant police force in the country. This would go out the window if violent resistance or street battles against right-wing thugs became common.

Violence is of course part and parcel of statecraft, and of human behavior more generally. People who object to it on moral grounds have a much weaker argument than those who object on practical ones. But the practical arguments against attempting a violent struggle are very, very strong.
 
I won't vote for someone who publicly states such a belief proudly, no. Politicians who are very gung-ho about violence tend to put the state in a position of perpetuating that violence to greater extents.

Does that mean if a reporter asks a politician if it's acceptable to punch Nazis and he/she said yes, you wouldn't vote for that person? Would it be different if the politician avoided giving an answer or a straight answer?

You're welcome to make separate threads about all of those specific issues if you're so inclined.

Those questions are related to the underlying principle of violent vs. non-violent politics. I think the thread is much more interesting if we discussed the underlying principle in greater depth, but if you prefer to stick to (totally not limp-wristed) outrage, then feel free to ignore or answer what you like.
 
Does that mean if a reporter asks a politician if it's acceptable to punch Nazis and he/she said yes, you wouldn't vote for that person? Would it be different if the politician avoided giving an answer or a straight answer?

Yes. Avoiding wouldn't be nice but would also not be enough to say for sure which way they're leaning.
 
The learning curve on violence is notoriously steep, and the US left is really not up to the challenge. This is the most heavily armed society on earth, and most weapons are in the hands of the police, the military, and right-wing private citizens, many of whom have very impressive arsenals. Even if the left switched sides on the 2nd amendment, amassed guns of their own over the next couple of decades, and then attempted a violent struggle, the most likely result would be a hellish modern civil war (no clear front lines, terrorist attacks all over the place, a loose coalition of independent left-wing actors which could turn on each other at any moment, and no clear end in sight). They would eventually lose anyway, unless they could manage to take over the state and use its apparatus.

Milder situations of violence, as in the street battles of Weimar, aren't going to go any better for them. It would just result in a series of riots, and the riot police would feel much less compelled to restrain themselves than they are with nonviolent (not to be confused with law-abiding) protesters. Not that they're gentle with ordinary civil disobedience that doesn't involve getting a permit and holding a parade, mind you, but they do usually refrain from using all the fancy military gear that has been sold at a discount to every significant police force in the country. This would go out the window if violent resistance or street battles against right-wing thugs became common.

Violence is of course part and parcel of statecraft, and of human behavior more generally. People who object to it on moral grounds have a much weaker argument than those who object on practical ones. But the practical arguments against attempting a violent struggle are very, very strong.

All that seems true, but I think we also have to wonder if these are conditions that have been created by the traditional liberal left rejection of non-state violence. Which is why I'm interested in discussing the underlying principle.

Spoiler :
It's also related to the other big question that I like to drive at, which is whether the obsession with rational debate harms the left's ability to steer society's direction. Is it not ultimately self-serving or at least self-defeating by playing to the hand of the ruling class, which controls the apparatus as discussed by Foucault and Gramsci? I mean, after all the talking, Trump is in power and the only constant is people at the very top of society are still #winning.


Smart people (or those who think they're smart) naturally trust their smarts, and people in general are comfortable with their peaceful lives, even if it means someone else is much worse off. Which is probably why many people reject political violence - until bad guys are in charge, after which the civil war you mentioned is unavoidable if you want to remove them from power.
 
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/...rkeley-protest.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Then I saw someone wearing all black walk up to a student wearing a suit and say, “You look like a Nazi.” The student was confused, but before he could reply, the black-clad person pepper-sprayed him and hit him on the back with a rod.

I ran after the student who was attacked to get his name and more information. He told me that he is a Syrian Muslim. Before I could find out more, he fled, fearing another attack.​
 
Anarchists always latch onto big protests. The Madmaxian element.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/...rkeley-protest.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Then I saw someone wearing all black walk up to a student wearing a suit and say, “You look like a Nazi.” The student was confused, but before he could reply, the black-clad person pepper-sprayed him and hit him on the back with a rod.

I ran after the student who was attacked to get his name and more information. He told me that he is a Syrian Muslim. Before I could find out more, he fled, fearing another attack.​


This sounds like a cop attempting to do a new COINTELPRO thing
 
That introduces an interesting metagame of antifa attacking perceived fascists with a generously wide net and then claiming it was cops imitating antifa.
 
Sure, but when the whole gang showed up with bats and a giant banner reading "this is war," it sure is an easy out to say "agent provocateurs" when one of their own picks the wrong target.
 
Yeah, your modus operandi is familiar to me. Say something that can obviously be interpreted as meaning something and then claim you don't actually mean it. I think someone is pretty well-known for that kind of trick as well.

Well obviously aelf, you'd know much better what I actually mean than I do wouldn't you. You berk.

Edit: Thinking about it, I now realise that this is just wishful thinking on your part. You want me to actually mean it because then I fit neatly into your worldview and you don't have to reassess anything. You don't like the idea of people who could say something like that, but to not even remotely mean it, because people like that shouldn't be able to exist in the model you've constructed. I'm also pretty sure that nothing I can say will convince you otherwise because the integrity of your worldview is too precious. So... go about your business I guess.
 
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Exactly, which is why when it comes to punching Nazis, Machiavelli comes in handy:
"If an injury must be done to a man, it should be so severe his vengeance need not be feared."

Oh right, so it's KILL nazis now is it (or at least cripple them)?

What an absolutely wonderful thread, showcasing the absolute best of some truly inspirational people.

(Hey aelf - did I mean that literally as well? I guess I must have done right?)
 
I find disturbing how many people are willing to behave like fascists and approve violence against political opponents. If you punch a Nazi, you are not some kind of 'resistance hero'. You are a fascist and as bad as the Nazi.

Nazi ideals are appalling but you do not defeat them by punching them on the street. This is both against free speech and the ideal of civilized discourse and democracy itself. Political disagreements should never be solved through fistfights. And the whole 'Nazis want to genocide people' is an excuse and pretty hypocritical if you do not explicitly support punching communists too (or the 20 million Stalin killed and the gulags that commies want do not count?).

Nazis should be defeated in the field of ideas. If you do not have arguments to convince people that the Nazis are wrong and have to resort to physical violence, you admit that their ideas are superior to yours. As I see it, the only thing leftists achieve by punching Nazis is to make them sort of 'martyrs' and make people sympathize with them. So, if you want to strengthen them, go ahead, punch Nazis and make them heroes.

If, on the other hand, you are truly interested in stopping far right ideas, you should learn how to make good arguments and prove the fallacy of their ideas.
 
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So why would you have a problem with punching someone who invites it?

Why does the result of limiting physical violence have to be "cool, so I can be as much of a jerk as I want without consequences"?

People who set out to be offensive should get their teeth knocked in...it makes the world a better place.

Why can you not see the difference? A physical attack is obviously justified in when defending against another physical attack, or a threat of a physical attack, or a situation where a physical attack genuinely appears to be likely. A physical attack is not justified against someone who's just "being a jerk".

Even if you don't agree with me on that, it's baffling to me that you can't even see the difference between the two things or comprehend how someone else might think if proper to treat them differently. But then your go-to reaction for most things seems to involve punching people in the face so maybe that's just normal in your eyes.
 
Antifascist action is always justified, whatever form it may take, and it's always justified because fascists advocate for genocide. This isn't some minor disagreement, it's fighting to prevent those sorts of people (with whom you seem to sympathise) from being able to destroy innocent lives

Sure, but when the whole gang showed up with bats and a giant banner reading "this is war," it sure is an easy out to say "agent provocateurs" when one of their own picks the wrong target.

It does make it easier for an agent provocateur to infiltrate.
 
Right, just to be clear...

I don't particularly have a problem with enjoying seeing someone you don't like getting punched in the face. That's perfectly understandable. I don't claim I wouldn't do that, or indeed haven't done that. I don't even claim that I would never punch anyone who wasn't directly threatening me, just because something they said or did provoked me. Tempers flare up and things happen. I won't EVEN claim that I couldn't hold a grudge for a long time and then punch someone later, in a much more "dish served cold" way. Or enjoy the thought of going around attacking people I just find really annoying in general.

But to openly and proudly advocate for physically attacking people purely on the basis of their ideological stances, and to think that this makes you a GOOD PERSON, to wear that as a badge of honour and virtue, is on a whole other level. Jesus, take a look at yourselves.

And clearly the terminology is playing a part here. When people hear "Nazi" they think of guys riding around in tanks, invading countries and gassing people to death. But what we're actually talking about is people who merely hold and express views that you find abhorrent, but at most are doing nothing more than holding public speaking events or the like. To wilfully conflate the two and then act as though any actions justified against the former group are equally justified against the latter group is actually grotesque.

You quite genuinely disgust me. PLEASE take a look at yourselves.
 
Antifascist action is always justified, whatever form it may take, and it's always justified because fascists advocate for genocide.

Does every single fascist, by definition, advocate for genocide? That wouldn't seem to be true. And even if it were, is advocating for genocide as bad as committing, or attempting to commit, actual genocide? You just said "killing people who hold supportive views about killing people is a good thing". I mean... Christ.

I guess I should thank whoever started this thread for shining such a great spotlight on what we actually have in residence here.
 
If, on the other hand, you are truly interested in stopping far right ideas, you should learn how to make good arguments and prove the fallacy of their ideas.

Yeah because clearly Nazis are just waiting for someone to logically prove to them the error of their wars? You fundamentally misunderstand Nazism, if you really believe this to be the case. If Nazis were amenable to logical arguments, they wouldn't be Nazis in the first place.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/...rkeley-protest.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Then I saw someone wearing all black walk up to a student wearing a suit and say, “You look like a Nazi.” The student was confused, but before he could reply, the black-clad person pepper-sprayed him and hit him on the back with a rod.

I ran after the student who was attacked to get his name and more information. He told me that he is a Syrian Muslim. Before I could find out more, he fled, fearing another attack.

And this sort of thing is why, while I think in the abstract it would be best to just kill them all, there's no way to really, practically do that without getting to a Stalinist place very rapidly. That's why the best way to deal with them, is generally to keep society healthy, and thus as inoculated as possible against extremism of any kind. The most important single thing is probably avoiding mass unemployment.
 
Yeah because clearly Nazis are just waiting for someone to logically prove to them the error of their wars? You fundamentally misunderstand Nazism, if you really believe this to be the case. If Nazis were amenable to logical arguments, they wouldn't be Nazis in the first place.

If you cannot persuade Nazis themselves, you can persuaded those who are leaning towards those ideas to abandon them. At the very least, you can prove the fallacy of their positions to the non-Nazis so that their movement does not spread. In any care, punching people for their political ideas (no matter how horrible those ideas may be) is abhorrent to me. Call me naive, but I believe in free speech (even for controversial ideas) and civilized discourse in politics.
 
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