Putin actually good for US

[Bulldog Bats]

Ah - and if it is the Russian official view, it must be the truth, especially when if he disagrees, he disappears. Sounds good to me.

 

[Yeekim]

Crimea is not another country. It was Ukraine only formally and suffered from its artificial assimilation policies and nation-building which ignores minorities.

There was never a clear distinction between Russian and Ukrainian.

So Ukrainians are basically Russians anyway, but Russian minority (never clearly distinct from Ukrainians!), suffered under forced Ukrainianization?

 

[Oruc]

Depends on your pov. In mine, Russia flexed its muscles and tried to control areas over which it had no legal claim (Iron Curtain), and threatened more. The US (and other countries) tried to, and eventually did, stop them. Also, the two bullies on the world block, wasted money flexing muscles.

My point as OP was never that I liked the US's actions, but that as the one superpower left in the world, were not popular in much of it. Now, as it appears Russia may be trying to emulate the former USSR, the US will be more popular as a counter.

Russia is the counter to the US, you have it backwards.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Nah, China is the counter to both! At once, you western barbarians!

 

[dexters]

Some thing that I have been discussing with friends - what Putin is doing may be good for the US internationally in the long run. During the Cold War, other countries may not have liked us, but they kind of needed us. The two superpowers balanced each other out.

Since the fall of the USSR, there has not been any country on the world stage on the same level. Some people didn't want the US poking their nose around the world, because we were the only real big guy left.

It is my opinion that Putin wants to re-form the Soviet Union, or some version, and take control of vast parts of Asia and eastern Europe. As others have said in other threads, he may be dangerous, but he is not crazy or stupid.

Thoughts?

Yes, in a way nothing to keep someone honest than someone else to compete against.

Compare and contrast.

Also it's good for US natural gas interests no doubt

As an aside,

I think the more immediate benefit is it has exposed a lot of lazy thinking in the intellectual circles on the anti-war movements of the west. For a decade, many have been able to make a point by simply invoking Bush Jr and Iraq and not arguing further, but I'm witnessing the anti-war movement, (of the left in particular) split like it never has. There is really a hard core out there who is now being exposed as not being really anti-war, but merely anti-American and it's really interesting because all their claims or morality and anti-imperialism, as late as last year --prior to Obama's abortive Syria campaign, rings rather hallow and hypocritical now

 

[gay_Aleks]

Oh, you know; if all natural gas suddenly gets a lot more expensive, the industry of America will be faced towards a grim future between two choices:

a) Spend years and years of profits towards a new source of energy, thus killing their industry

b) Buy the Sun and charge anyone who uses it.

 

[dexters]

Oh, you know; if all natural gas suddenly gets a lot more expensive, the industry of America will be faced towards a grim future between two choices:

a) Spend years and years of profits towards a new source of energy, thus killing their industry

b) Buy the Sun and charge anyone who uses it.

There is currently a glut of natural gas in North America.

The USA currently has an export ban on natural gas which is keeping prices artificially low, but that could be lifted.

Rising prices might also reroute some of our pipeline projects (here in Canada). A lot of the plans being developed is based on shipping to Asia to capture their higher prices. But it could go east towards Europe and currently that route has less opposition as well.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

Such is part of my point - it is chic to be anti-US right now (and has been for a while). If a bigger bad guy comes out, the US becomes instantly more of a good guy, just as an alternative.

 

[gay_Aleks]

So long as there's an ocean and a half between you and the Sovi- err, Russian Federation.

If not, then all bets are off.

 

[dexters]

Such is part of my point - it is chic to be anti-US right now (and has been for a while). If a bigger bad guy comes out, the US becomes instantly more of a good guy, just as an alternative.

Not that its underdeserved. But I grew up in Asia near US military bases and understood the defense the US provided to the country I lived in and the vastly higher standard of living afforded to me compared to someone living in the decrepit Soviet Union at the time. This was Reagan/Bush Sr. era 80s. Great time to a be kid. (rose colored glasses on)

It's self interest no doubt but on balance I'm pro-American because all the alternatives are worse.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

So Ukrainians are basically Russians anyway, but Russian minority (never clearly distinct from Ukrainians!), suffered under forced Ukrainianization?

Since this Ukrainization is artificial and has little to do with the real culture/history/language, Ukrainians suffered too – starting with children:


Link to video.

(She teaches children that name forms which sound Russian are awful and must not be used by Ukrainians. When children protest she says "it is a catastrophe". She shows a tablet with correct names and tells racist jokes; there was a scandal because of this. Farion is a member of Svoboda and deputy of Rada now.)

Surely you're aware of Farion up there and of what I am talking about, Yeekim. You just pretend you are not.

Most of those Ukrainian top nationalists are not that Ukrainian by their own standard as they want people to believe. They speak Russian when there are no cameras near. And this Farion was as much zealous in propagation of Russian language and Marxism in Soviet times as she is now with Ukrainian language and (West-)Ukrainian nationalism.

If a cannibalism was a trend and an easy way to power, those people would propagate cannibalism among children.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

What the heck does "artificial" mean?

 

[dexters]

What the heck does "artificial" mean?

I took it to be some sort anti-Ukranian epithet, saw who the poster was and ignored it.

 

[Bulldog Bats]

Or "forced Ukrainianization"? According to wikipedia (as serious research as I am going to be doing at 8:25 at night), the country has 44.6 million people,[5] 77.8% of whom are ethnic Ukrainians, with sizable minorities of ethnic Russians (17%) - looks to me like the very sizable majority got what they wanted (the US would call that democracy).

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

What the heck does "artificial" mean?

It's when they invent new words just to replace the old words which sound Russian or are the same as Russian, for example.

Or when they introduce school textbooks where the history of Ukrainian people starts 140,000 years ago.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Or "forced Ukrainianization"? According to wikipedia (as serious research as I am going to be doing at 8:25 at night), the country has 44.6 million people,[5] 77.8% of whom are ethnic Ukrainians, with sizable minorities of ethnic Russians (17%) - looks to me like the very sizable majority got what they wanted (the US would call that democracy).

Yet the majority of the population elected Yanukovych, and Russia really had nothing to do with it.

"Democracy" isn't overthrowing the legitimate and sovereign government merely because some people decided they didn't want to wait until the next election to pick a different leader.

 

[dexters]

Yet the majority of the population elected Yanukovych, and Russia really had nothing to do with it.

"Democracy" isn't overthrowing the legitimate and sovereign government merely because some people decided they didn't want to wait until the next election to pick a different leader.

Yanukovych's platform on his election was moderate. By all accounts he was balancing between the tectonic plates of geopolitical east and west and continued negotiations to EU association treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Presidency_.282010.E2.80.932014.29

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Or "forced Ukrainianization"? According to wikipedia (as serious research as I am going to be doing at 8:25 at night), the country has 44.6 million people,[5] 77.8% of whom are ethnic Ukrainians, with sizable minorities of ethnic Russians (17%) - looks to me like the very sizable majority got what they wanted (the US would call that democracy).

Even if you do more serious research none of the sources in English will explain you the interrelation of Ukrainian and Russian identities and their vagueness in relation to each other. Plus to that many sources are biased.

People of Malorusian culture in Russia consider themselves Russians, but they speak tongue which you could call Ukrainian. Then again when dealing with a neigbouring settlement, for example, they can call themselves "Khokhols" and people of that other settlement "Moskals".

People of standard variation of Russian language and of prevalent Russian culture/identity, in Ukraine, frequently, especially in formal cases such as census, call themselves Ukrainian. They got angered and worrying, though, when the junta has recently called Russians in Ukraine a diaspora and not native.

 

[Yeekim]

(She teaches children that name forms which sound Russian are awful and must not be used by Ukrainians. When children protest she says "it is a catastrophe". She shows a tablet with correct names and tells racist jokes; there was a scandal because of this. Farion is a member of Svoboda and deputy of Rada now.)

Surely you're aware of Farion up there and of what I am talking about, Yeekim. You just pretend you are not.

Why on earth would you presume that I'd "be aware" of a third-rate Ukrainian politician, whose greatest moment of publicity, according to wiki you posted, is the stunt captured on your video?

So there is a crazy deputy in Lviv municipal council who got eleced to the Rada. What has that to do with forced Ukrainization of Crimea?

EDIT: For the first time, I actually watched a video of yours. Did you actually watch it yourself? Care to point out, at what moment does she do anything you said she did?

 

[Domen]

Polish politicians heavily criticized Timoshenko for her racist anti-Russian expressions and incites in that phone call. One even said that the current situation in Crimea is largely Timoshenko's fault and that nobody should support her, certainly not Poland.

They got angered and worrying, though, when the junta has recently called Russians in Ukraine a diaspora and not native.

Joint Ukrainian-Russian 1930s-1940s propaganda about "Polish osadniki" has backfired at you.

Or when they introduce school textbooks where the history of Ukrainian people starts 140,000 years ago.

Probably around that time first anatomically modern humans came to Ukraine from Africa.