Israelite9191
You should be reading
@Civ2:
Yes, I am quite long-winded, sorry abpout that. I know perfectly well that the one-ness of divinity was known to the Gentiles at the time of Adam and his children, and later still at the time of Noah and his children. However, by the time of the revelation on Mt. Sinai, or even by the time of Avraham, Gentilian society had by and large forgotten the concept of Monotheism. In fact, if we believe archeology to be a legitamate science and history a legitamate area of academia (I know I do) then we can take the scholarly view that (besides perhaps a few scattered random individuals who broke through the barrier of a completely different social, philosophical, and theological outlook) Avraham (assuming he was a real, flesh and blood person, as I personally do and I am sure you do) was either the first person to preach and believe in a monotheistic religion as he did or the second (with Pharaoh Akhenaten being the first). So, I have basically in a very long winded fashion just stated that by the time of Avraham, and thus obviously the revelation at Sinai, the Gentile world had forgotten the monotheistic nature of teh divine. Thus, just as we are to forgive a Jew who ist taken and raised in Gentile society, we are to forgive the Gentiles who were raised in a society that had forgotten. or were led to believe in the falicy of, the Seven Laws of Noah (which, BTW, were given to Noah, who was a Gentile, and were intended for Gentiles as well as pre-Torah Jews, not solely pre-Torah Jews, in which case they would have beenrevealed to Avraham and the Patriarchs).
Furthermore, I am fully knowledgable of the fact that the Patriarchs and Matriarchs are concidered to have lived "Torah-true" lives. I really don't see how this fact plays into this particular debate and don't understand why you brought it up. As for the importance of the revelation at Sinai, I believe you underestimate it (I do recognize the importance of the ability for the material to become one with the spiritual, but even with that I still have my reservations and could argue about it, but more importantly I believe you are overlooking other important things). While the Patriarchs and the Matriarchs are concidered to have lived "Torah-true" lives, that doesn't mean any one from Yakov's children on did. Furthermore, though the Patriarchs and the Matriarchs lived "Torah-true" lives, that does not mean they actually knew the Torah, that only means that they knew, somehow, what laws to follow and did follow those laws.
As for Jewish schools in Chicago, yes, there are schools here. In fact, I went to an elementary school for K-2, but unfortunately, it closed down. All of the other elementary Jewish schools in Chicago are either Orthodox, and in secular subjects, not that good or Conservative (preferred) and good in secular subjects, but extremely expensive. When it came time to choose a highschool, we (myself and my parents) ran into the same problems with Jewish school and, not wanting a school with no religious foundation and also wanting the best possible education in secular subjects chose the Jesuits and in particular St. Ignatius College Prep (if you read the article I link to you will learn just how good secular education, particularly in the social sciences [including politics] St. Ignatius is). Also, you may have been thrown off by the term Hebrew school. I do not know if you have the term in Europe, but basically it is a school that meets during the week (after school hours) and/or on the weekend (not Shabbos, obviously) and teaches Jewish religion, culture, and as the name suggests, Hebrew. Students graduate right around the time of their Bar or Bat (depending on if the girl is Reform, Reconstructionist, or Conservative as opposed to Orthodox) Mitzvah.
Finally, while I know you meant you comment with all the best intentions, I would ask that you please not criticize my choice to follow, going with my upbringing, the Reform and Conservative branches as opposed to the Orthodox branch. I do not believe Orthodoxy is the only "right way." I do feel that Orthodox Jews, particularly Hassidic Jews, like yourself are the reason (along with the Covenant and Hashem) that Judaism still exists in this world, but as I said, I do not believe you have the only right way, nor I the only right way. As a matter of respect I would appreciate if you not criticize other branches of Judaism in this discussion.
EDIT: Thank you for pointing that out (the Temple and synagogues). One thing about Reform Judaism that always gets me angry is the trend to call synagogues "temples." Really, it is a long story and not one I am ready to get into at 4:30 AM.
Yes, I am quite long-winded, sorry abpout that. I know perfectly well that the one-ness of divinity was known to the Gentiles at the time of Adam and his children, and later still at the time of Noah and his children. However, by the time of the revelation on Mt. Sinai, or even by the time of Avraham, Gentilian society had by and large forgotten the concept of Monotheism. In fact, if we believe archeology to be a legitamate science and history a legitamate area of academia (I know I do) then we can take the scholarly view that (besides perhaps a few scattered random individuals who broke through the barrier of a completely different social, philosophical, and theological outlook) Avraham (assuming he was a real, flesh and blood person, as I personally do and I am sure you do) was either the first person to preach and believe in a monotheistic religion as he did or the second (with Pharaoh Akhenaten being the first). So, I have basically in a very long winded fashion just stated that by the time of Avraham, and thus obviously the revelation at Sinai, the Gentile world had forgotten the monotheistic nature of teh divine. Thus, just as we are to forgive a Jew who ist taken and raised in Gentile society, we are to forgive the Gentiles who were raised in a society that had forgotten. or were led to believe in the falicy of, the Seven Laws of Noah (which, BTW, were given to Noah, who was a Gentile, and were intended for Gentiles as well as pre-Torah Jews, not solely pre-Torah Jews, in which case they would have beenrevealed to Avraham and the Patriarchs).
Furthermore, I am fully knowledgable of the fact that the Patriarchs and Matriarchs are concidered to have lived "Torah-true" lives. I really don't see how this fact plays into this particular debate and don't understand why you brought it up. As for the importance of the revelation at Sinai, I believe you underestimate it (I do recognize the importance of the ability for the material to become one with the spiritual, but even with that I still have my reservations and could argue about it, but more importantly I believe you are overlooking other important things). While the Patriarchs and the Matriarchs are concidered to have lived "Torah-true" lives, that doesn't mean any one from Yakov's children on did. Furthermore, though the Patriarchs and the Matriarchs lived "Torah-true" lives, that does not mean they actually knew the Torah, that only means that they knew, somehow, what laws to follow and did follow those laws.
As for Jewish schools in Chicago, yes, there are schools here. In fact, I went to an elementary school for K-2, but unfortunately, it closed down. All of the other elementary Jewish schools in Chicago are either Orthodox, and in secular subjects, not that good or Conservative (preferred) and good in secular subjects, but extremely expensive. When it came time to choose a highschool, we (myself and my parents) ran into the same problems with Jewish school and, not wanting a school with no religious foundation and also wanting the best possible education in secular subjects chose the Jesuits and in particular St. Ignatius College Prep (if you read the article I link to you will learn just how good secular education, particularly in the social sciences [including politics] St. Ignatius is). Also, you may have been thrown off by the term Hebrew school. I do not know if you have the term in Europe, but basically it is a school that meets during the week (after school hours) and/or on the weekend (not Shabbos, obviously) and teaches Jewish religion, culture, and as the name suggests, Hebrew. Students graduate right around the time of their Bar or Bat (depending on if the girl is Reform, Reconstructionist, or Conservative as opposed to Orthodox) Mitzvah.
Finally, while I know you meant you comment with all the best intentions, I would ask that you please not criticize my choice to follow, going with my upbringing, the Reform and Conservative branches as opposed to the Orthodox branch. I do not believe Orthodoxy is the only "right way." I do feel that Orthodox Jews, particularly Hassidic Jews, like yourself are the reason (along with the Covenant and Hashem) that Judaism still exists in this world, but as I said, I do not believe you have the only right way, nor I the only right way. As a matter of respect I would appreciate if you not criticize other branches of Judaism in this discussion.
EDIT: Thank you for pointing that out (the Temple and synagogues). One thing about Reform Judaism that always gets me angry is the trend to call synagogues "temples." Really, it is a long story and not one I am ready to get into at 4:30 AM.
