Questions you should like to see them ask in a Miss World Pageant

[Borachio]

Which kind of misses the point by a mile, I'd say. But never mind.

 

[Camikaze]

I'm not absolutely certain that there is something inherently wrong with beauty contests.

I strongly suspect that there might be, though.

Don't they send the message to all young females that it's possible, and legitimate, to achieve high status simply by your appearance? And conversely, that being "ugly" is somehow worth less? And that youth is worth more than old age? And furthermore that crusty rich old males are the sole arbiters of this worth? (no doubt there are some token female judges too. crusty rich old ones.)

This seems to be a psychologically flawed premise, somehow.

I think it's the last of those things that's the problem, but see Drool4Res-pect's comment with regards to the rest. There's nothing inherently wrong about females doing what they want with their bodies, including entering them into contests. It's perhaps how beauty happens to be judged, or the standards which are sought to be conformed to, which are problematic.

Also remember that you would hesitate telling a young person to think of their appearance before attending a job interview. Wearing appropriate clothing and demonstrating a degree of care for personal appearance is regarded as a legitimate factor in getting ahead in life, rightly or wrongly. This is again a standard that is largely determined by crusty old white men.

Perhaps the only difference with a job interview is that the process of judging someone by their appearance is less naked, so to speak.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Could a woman win an academic competition on the basis of her looks?

It's a beauty competition. Thus an ugly woman is unlikely to win. The problem would seem to me to be that it's called 'Miss World', rather than something that makes clear it's just about beauty. The title does imply that the competition is adjudging who is the best overall female in the world, or who has the most value, and adjudicating that on the basis of beauty is objectifying. But if we acknowledge that it's just a beauty contest, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that.

It doesn't matter if you verbally draw a distinction or not. The message is the same, because the action and the result are the same. If I shoot you dead, and apologize for it while doing so, does that change the facts that I deliberately killed you and that you are dead? Likewise, if you judge a woman based upon her beauty, and put that judgment on a pedestal for all to see, you are unquestionably sending the message to children, and re-affirming to adults, that this is how a woman's value is decided. Putting an asterisk next to it saying *"winning the Miss World pageant is not a guarantee of validity as a woman, and losing it is not a guarantee a invalidity" has absolutely no impact on the efficacy of spreading the overall message.

After talking with a feminist friend of mine who knows far more than I, I do want to acknowledge that Drools-for-Respect was right to call me out on faulting the models for their participation in the event. It is not they who send the message, who decide what the social norms are. It is the ruling class who does that. They are simply using the society they live in to their own advantage, just as we all are.

 

[Borachio]

Yes. I think the women themselves can't be blamed for taking advantage of their "beauty" and the value that (some parts of) society put on it.

Imagine a situation where one could be paid for bounty-hunting criminals. Would I be wrong for a making a living out of killing people that way?

(Actually I rather think I would be wrong.)

 

[Camikaze]

@Cheezy - I don't think that's really much of a disagreement with what I'm saying, because I'm just getting at the point that the issue isn't with the idea of a beauty competition being won by the most 'beautiful' contestant (though how that is determined is certainly open to examination), but with how that competition is portrayed or promoted. That seems to be essentially what you're saying too. At least, I don't really find your post above disagreeable at all. I can agree that there is a problem with this particular beauty contest, due to the message it specifically sends. My point was more in relation to the idea of beauty contests in general.

@Borachio - as you kinda half-identify, bounty hunting criminals is wrong in itself. Being beautiful isn't.

 

[Archbob]

Judging someone by how beautiful they are is no different than judging them by how smart they are, its just a different premise. Who are you tell me me that personality or intelligence is more important than looks?

Note: I don't actually disagree with you that those two should be more important than looks, but there's really not a good reason why someone should see them as more important.

 

[Gucumatz]

Marginally relevant, apparently the French banned beauty pageants for girls 16 and under.

 

[Antilogic]

That's going to fail just like prohibition. There's going to be a black market "Toddlers & Tiaras" show on the air in a week!

 

[GoodGame]

I personally would love to them answer the question:

"If you had to execute one other Miss America/World contestant, who would it be?"

And no, they cannot pass on this question.

I think the answer would be interested and they might have to be briefed diplomatically beforehand by their governments as to how to answer or else the animosity would really come out between some countries.

lol

FAL is a creative poster, for sure.

 

[Yeekim]

No, problematic social norm under question being that we value a women based upon her beauty, and teach women that their value is based upon their beauty?

Frankly, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Both sexes do value each other based upon appearances (among other things) and that is not going to change. Nor do I think it should.

I'd agree something was wrong when the only (or even most prestigious) contests where women could enter were the beauty contests, but I don't think that is the case. Also, why single out specific contests? For instance, every girl has to spend most of her impressionable years in schools, where they are taught that their value is also based upon how hard they work and how smart they are.

EDIT: Also, keeping the previously mentioned definition in mind, why is beauty pageant more of an objectification than sports contest, or an academic one?

EDIT2: Not to leave the wrong impression: I am not much of a fan of beauty pageants - usually they are incredibly boring. But still.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Ask a woman.

 

[Borachio]

@Borachio - as you kinda half-identify, bounty hunting criminals is wrong in itself. Being beautiful isn't.

Yes. That's sort of right. Perhaps my analogy is wrong.

A better one might be an arms manufacturer who says "Armaments are considered legal and OK by society at large, so there's nothing wrong with me taking advantage of this fact and manufacturing armaments". This may not be a logical conclusion.

Still, many people on CFC probably consider armaments to be rather beautiful, too.

A slave marketeer might have said, when slavery was legal, "Owning slaves is legal, therefore there's nothing wrong with me making my living selling slaves. Beautiful slaves at that."

 

[Camikaze]

Even if slavery were legal, it'd still be inherently wrong. Legality only has a tangential relationship to morality.

 

[Yeekim]

Ask a woman.

I managed to poll 3 today. None expressed dissatisfaction with the idea of beauty pageants...

 

[Archbob]

That's because "forward thinking" men hate the idea of Beauty pageants more than women do(they don't).

 

[Borachio]

Even if slavery were legal, it'd still be inherently wrong. Legality only has a tangential relationship to morality.

I agree.

But then the fact that women willingly participate in beauty contests also only has a tangential relationship to whether its a desirable feature of the world?

 

[Archbob]

I agree.

But then the fact that women willingly participate in beauty contests also only has a tangential relationship to whether its a desirable feature of the world?

So does everything else. Participating in science olympiads to get the scholarship or job, partipating in game shows to get money, guys doing sports because it makes them look macho, etc, etc.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with beauty pageants.

 

[Borachio]

You think, then, that the winner of one might take away the message that merely conforming to some standard of "beauty" whatever that might mean is a good thing?

And that all the losers should recognize that their worth is simply less?

Still, I suppose a lot must depend on what you mean by "nothing wrong".

One could equally say there's nothing wrong with someone selling themselves into slavery.

 

[Archbob]

You think, then, that the winner of one might take away the message that merely conforming to some standard of "beauty" whatever that might mean is a good thing?

And that all the losers should recognize that their worth is simply less?

Still, I suppose a lot must depend on what you mean by "nothing wrong".

One could equally say there's nothing wrong with someone selling themselves into slavery.

What a certain group of people thinks as "Beautiful" largely come for biological and survival reasons. There are very valid reasons for these things. Using beauty or using intelligence is the same principle. Your trying to convince people that physical attraction doesn't matter, that's total nonsense.

Whether people value beauty, intelligence, ambition, etc. None of it is wrong.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not saying beauty, intelligence, or ambition (though I'm not so sure ambition of the raw kind is necessarily good) are wrong. Far from it.

Nor indeed would I say that Beauty Pageants are wrong. In a world where it's considered right to kill large numbers of people, I'd say Beauty Pageants are, at worst, completely irrelevant.

What do you think about Beauty Pageants for young girls?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deborah-cruz/the-french-government-ban_b_3958301.html

I would expect you to be totally fine with them. They make me feel (very briefly and then I move on) uncomfortable.