Random Thoughts IV: the Abyss Gazes Back

[rah]

Or the Catholics that think the Hijab is a symbol of oppression but don't have any issues with a Nun's habit.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Muslim culture in the West still very much pushes women towards wearing the Hijab

I think this statement is at the core of unwinding the contradiction. Muslim culture in the west is such a relatively weak force that it doesn't really amount to a contribution to oppression. It doesn't "very much push" anything. It applies to far too few people, and even those it applies to are more influenced by other factors.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Sure. What I mean people can't hold these positions and have a consistent world view when it comes to what constitutes oppression and what doesn't. They are contradictory positions, is what I'm trying to say.

While we are quite capable of reason, people are often not reasonable. Nor are we consistent in our views. When people write books or articles or position papers about stuff, generally, they are to persuade people of something so the authors look to be consistent and persuasive. Otherwise there is little reason to be consistent in our views. We like consistency in others, but are less demanding for ourselves.

 

[Cutlass]

Mondaming?

Sticking with the theme, we'll call it New Traitorland.

 

[Cutlass]

Or the Catholics that think the Hijab is a symbol of oppression but don't have any issues with a Nun's habit.

Nun's choose to be nuns.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nun's choose to be nuns.

Muslims choose to be Muslims, at least in the west.

 

[Cutlass]

Muslims choose to be Muslims, at least in the west.

I kind of see it as a difference being raised constantly told that it is the only thing to do by all your family and religious leaders as opposed to choosing a vocation as an adult.

 

[Ryika]

I think this statement is at the core of unwinding the contradiction. Muslim culture in the west is such a relatively weak force that it doesn't really amount to a contribution to oppression. It doesn't "very much push" anything. It applies to far too few people, and even those it applies to are more influenced by other factors.

I heavily disagree with the idea that Muslim culture is a "relatively weak force" in this context. Sure, if we were talking about the Muslim influence on the West overall, yeah, Muslim influence is a rather weak force, but we're talking about Muslim influence on Muslim women. That's a wholly different thing, because a Muslim woman (and yeah, that's a silly term, but I'll use it for the sake of keeping that part of the discussion simple) does not exist in an average "greater Western Society", a Muslim woman usually exists in an area that is dominated by Muslims , and mostly has contact with other Muslims; their parents, their family, friends of the family, their friends, etc.

And while there is no such thing as a unified "Muslim Culture", there are expectations towards women that are shared by most cultures that have their origin in the same religion, in this case Islam.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I kind of see it as a difference being raised constantly told that it is the only thing to do by all your family and religious leaders as opposed to choosing a vocation as an adult.

Adults who weren't raised in devoutly Catholic households and communities don't reach adulthood and suddenly pop up with "hey, I'm gonna be a nun!"

The question that you are rapidly approaching is whether parents have a right to raise their children in their faith or whether that is inherently oppressive to their children. We all know that any discussion of that issue will bring the rabidly fanatical worshipers of the non-god out of the woodwork to defend the position that all children should be raised in the cult of the non-god. Is that a conversation you really want to see again?

I heavily disagree with the idea that Muslim culture is a "relatively weak force" in this context. Sure, if we were talking about the Muslim influence on the West overall, yeah, Muslim influence is a rather weak force, but we're talking about Muslim influence on Muslim women. That's a wholly different thing, because a Muslim woman (and yeah, that's a silly term, but I'll use it for the sake of keeping that part of the discussion simple) does not exist in an average "greater Western Society", a Muslim woman usually exists in an area that is dominated by Muslims , and mostly has contact with other Muslims; their parents, their family, friends of the family, their friends, etc.

And while there is no such thing as a unified "Muslim Culture", there are expectations towards women that are shared by most cultures that have their origin in the same religion, in this case Islam.

We're still talking about western countries. A woman born and raised in a "Muslim community" cannot be confined there as an adult.

Would I prefer to have not been raised in the house of a racist? Sure. Would I prefer to have grown up somewhere other than the rural hinterland in a community dominated by the associated parochial views? Of course. Was leaving all that behind and finding the diversity of options available to me harder than it might have been for someone born in a different place and time? Sure. But that's the breaks of birth.

 

[Ryika]

We're still talking about western countries. A woman born and raised in a "Muslim community" cannot be confined there as an adult.

Would I prefer to have not been raised in the house of a racist? Sure. Would I prefer to have grown up somewhere other than the rural hinterland in a community dominated by the associated parochial views? Of course. Was leaving all that behind and finding the diversity of options available to me harder than it might have been for someone born in a different place and time? Sure. But that's the breaks of birth.

That logic doesn't make sense to me. If oppression is not oppression because the person can, in theory, move away from the area where they're being oppressed, then most types of oppression would not actually qualify as oppression, because the people being oppressed could always move away to a place where that type of oppression doesn't exist. So by that logic, oppression only exists in cases where the person is prevented from moving out of the oppression, or when it's not worse than the average condition in greater society. That's a ... weird view of the world that excludes a very specific type of situation from being oppression, while there are situations that are better and worse that all qualify as oppression.

But I also disagree with the logic that a person can just move away from that area. Not only are there practical limitations - how does an individual from a demographic that usually comes from a socially and economically disadvantaged background even manage to afford to move, and how would they find a flat to move into if the story they have to tell the landlord is that they're running away from their old life? But it also requires a very specific kind of person to leave ones life behind; I do not think it is reasonable to expect the average person to be able to do that.

Overall, I find the argument pretty weak. Even in its best state - that people could move away, but don't because it's easier to accept the limitations of the area that you live in in comparison - this would still fall under the banner of oppression - at least when oppression is defined in a way that societal expectations constitute oppression.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Sticking with the theme, we'll call it New Traitorland.

Mondamingian Traitorland!

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Or the Catholics that think the Hijab is a symbol of oppression but don't have any issues with a Nun's habit.

The only times I've ever seen anyone wearing a full nun's habit (in person, not on TV or in movies) have been either as a Halloween costume or in the theatre, the year I worked on a production of "The Sound of Music."

Most nuns I've seen who could actually be identified as a nun just wore a kerchief-type hair covering and a cross. Otherwise they wore normal street clothes.

 

[rah]

The nuns in our parish all wear at least the head habit and the older ones still wear the full costume.

 

[CKS]

Yeah, the nuns I know usually wear blue jeans and sweaters with nothing on their heads. There is nothing outwardly apparent that marks them as nuns. Nun's habits may have been oppressive at one time, but since they don't exist in the USA anymore (at least in any significant number), USAns (whether Catholic or not) are not going to find them oppressive.

rah, maybe your Chicago nuns are just fashionably late in changing their outfits. Although the Chicago nuns I know don't wear habits of any sort.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That logic doesn't make sense to me. If oppression is not oppression because the person can, in theory, move away from the area where they're being oppressed, then most types of oppression would not actually qualify as oppression, because the people being oppressed could always move away to a place where that type of oppression doesn't exist. So by that logic, oppression only exists in cases where the person is prevented from moving out of the oppression, or when it's not worse than the average condition in greater society. That's a ... weird view of the world that excludes a very specific type of situation from being oppression, while there are situations that are better and worse that all qualify as oppression.

But I also disagree with the logic that a person can just move away from that area. Not only are there practical limitations - how does an individual from a demographic that usually comes from a socially and economically disadvantaged background even manage to afford to move, and how would they find a flat to move into if the story they have to tell the landlord is that they're running away from their old life? But it also requires a very specific kind of person to leave ones life behind; I do not think it is reasonable to expect the average person to be able to do that.

Overall, I find the argument pretty weak. Even in its best state - that people could move away, but don't because it's easier to accept the limitations of the area that you live in in comparison - this would still fall under the banner of oppression - at least when oppression is defined in a way that societal expectations constitute oppression.

Look, if you want to say that breaking from the orthodox Muslim community in City X, which might require moving across town, is comparable to seeking that magical place in the US where the criminal justice system isn't biased against blacks there is no way I can stop you, but I think everyone else will agree that the difficulties differ by several orders of magnitude.

 

[Takhisis]

Muslims choose to be Muslims, at least in the west.

Define ‘west’.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Define ‘west’.

Someone else used it first. Ask them. I just went along with the usage I took as their obvious meaning.

 

[Takhisis]

Ryika just happens to live in a country that is being targetted by Erdoğan's militant mosque-building. It's not the same west as some people in the U.S. might define (i.e. north of Canada, south of Mexico and sole defeaters of the Nazis)

 

[Ryika]

Look, if you want to say that breaking from the orthodox Muslim community in City X, which might require moving across town, is comparable to seeking that magical place in the US where the criminal justice system isn't biased against blacks there is no way I can stop you, but I think everyone else will agree that the difficulties differ by several orders of magnitude.

Not sure where you got the idea from that I claimed those are the same things, I did not. Quite the opposite, I'll agree with you immediately that a Muslim woman woman has the relative privilege of being able to move out of her community (at least if she's not one of the few unlucky people who live in particularly radical families and get abducted or killed for even trying to leave their family and the life that they planned for them), while a black person in the will face some amount of oppression anywhere in the USA, but I don't see how that means that we can in any way conclude that therefor, things such as being forced to wear the Hijab are not signs of oppression.

It seems to me that you have moved on from defending the position that I initially called out as being inconsistent, to basically arguing that it is a form of oppression, but one that in your opinion just is "not that bad" compared to other forms of oppression.

 

[rah]

rah, maybe your Chicago nuns are just fashionably late in changing their outfits. Although the Chicago nuns I know don't wear habits of any sort.

Blues Brothers

The last of the full habit nuns have mostly died off but most around here still wear the abbreviated head one. (I guess I could just not realize that they are nuns if they're not wearing any sort )