Random Thoughts XII - Floccinaucinihilipilification

[Valka D'Ur]

It was the fact that every other discussion degenerated to American style left vs right slugfests and everybody caring about how many ridges the Klingons have a bit too much that made me leave that place. I used to be a somewhat regular poster. Being a fan is fine but being a fanatic about it can easily create a toxic atomsphere for somebody who just wants a lighthearted chat and doesn't care too much about "canon" (I mean, I do, but I'm not obsessed about it like half the people on that forum)

The left vs right nonsense is what pushed me over the edge though. What a waste of time and energy

One of the mods there stated (back in 2009) that I must be an elderly Republican-voting woman from New York, based on my opinions regarding the first of the nuTrek movies. That was the politest part of what he said; some of the rest of what he said is the sort of thing that used to get people here infracted for inappropriate language.

Even after I set him straight, to this day he still hasn't had the integrity to apologize.

Most of the time these days, I hang out in the Admirals' Lounge (hidden lounge accessible only to people with paid memberships or who have achieved one of the three ranks of the Admiralty; there's a small group of us there who play Star Trek Hangman) or else in one or another of the non-Star Trek media forums (another small group; we watch and discuss some of the CBS reality game shows; The Amazing Race is on currently).

As for the rest of the place... I drop into this or that place once in awhile. Sometimes I'll enter a caption contest or drop a comment in yet another of the many arguments over whether the Federation uses money or not (it does, and I don't give a damn what Kirk and Picard say about it because the events happening elsewhere in the federation and even on the starship in the same episode contradict them).

The Dune discussion is about the same, though (albeit I was mistaken for someone else on the old Dune forum I ran and promptly set the person straight that no, I'm not him). Sometimes I think I must be the only person on the planet who ever noticed the line in the novel: "I am Chani, daughter of Liet" because I've lost track of the number of people who insist that there's no way to tell if those two characters have any connection at all. I guess Frank Herbert's own dialogue isn't good enough.

Here's a random thought though: At some point all men on the planet probably had beards

It's one of those evolutionary holdovers that went away in some ethnic groups but not in most others.

Some men are attractive with or without one. Some others are more attractive with than without.

And then there's Justin Trudeau, who should never, ever, EVER show his face in public if he's not clean-shaven. For one thing, he looks ridiculous with a beard. And for another, it prompts an increase in the stupid comments that persist that his real father was Fidel Castro (Margaret didn't even meet Castro until years after Justin was born, and the little kid in that famous photo of Margaret and Fidel is actually Justin's youngest brother, Michel - the one who died in an avalanche in BC over 20 years ago).

 

[warpus]

Some men are attractive with or without one. Some others are more attractive with than without.

What I meant was that at one point the technology to shave did not exist and/or we were not advanced enough intellectually to consider shaving. No other species shave, after all. At which exact point the first human shaved his beard off is another question, but I think we should have a name for that event, such as the debearding singularity

And then there's Justin Trudeau, who should never, ever, EVER show his face in public if he's not clean-shaven. For one thing, he looks ridiculous with a beard. And for another, it prompts an increase in the stupid comments that persist that his real father was Fidel Castro (Margaret didn't even meet Castro until years after Justin was born, and the little kid in that famous photo of Margaret and Fidel is actually Justin's youngest brother, Michel - the one who died in an avalanche in BC over 20 years ago).

Personally I feel we should never shame somebody's decision to have or not have a beard, unless it honestly looks really bad, which in Trudeau's case isn't really true. As for the idiots who claim he is Castro's son, surely we shouldn't care about that "opinion" of the tiny insane minority

There's been a beard obsession over the last decade that's luckily dying down a bit these days, and some people tried to convince me that not having a beard is "not manly" as a result. It's fine to be proud of your beard, or whatever. Heck, have a beard on your back, I don't care. Do what you want with your own body hair but mind your own business when it comes to mine. (not you, the general you)

There's so many hipster beard bros running around these days who sport the exact same look. It's like they're copying each other. Be unique! Do your own thing

 

[Samson]

What I meant was that at one point the technology to shave did not exist and/or we were not advanced enough intellectually to consider shaving.

I had to google, and found this:

It is believed that Stone Age men started shaving 100,000 years ago by using clam shells like tweezers and pulling out their beard hair.

About 60,000 years ago, man discovered shaving, and started using sharpened obsidian and clam shells to shave their beards.
​

It may be longer ago than you think...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Personally I feel we should never shame somebody's decision to have or not have a beard, unless it honestly looks really bad, which in Trudeau's case isn't really true. As for the idiots who claim he is Castro's son, surely we shouldn't care about that "opinion" of the tiny insane minority

Actually, yeah. It is true. He looks horrible with a beard. You know what the first indication of an imminent election call is during his time as PM? He shaves off his beard and gets a "politician's" haircut. I don't object to his letting his hair grow - it gets curly, which is normal for him. I just wish he'd not grown the beard because it doesn't match the rest of him.

There's been a beard obsession over the last decade that's luckily dying down a bit these days, and some people tried to convince me that not having a beard is "not manly" as a result. It's fine to be proud of your beard, or whatever. Heck, have a beard on your back, I don't care. Do what you want with your own body hair but mind your own business when it comes to mine. (not you, the general you)

In some cultures it is considered "unmanly" to not have a beard, or at least it was in the past. The idea is that women can't grow beards and boys don't grow beards, so a full-grown man without a beard is considered either effeminate or immature - and neither of these merit respect*.

*Some historical/anthropological views, not my own

I had to google, and found this:

It is believed that Stone Age men started shaving 100,000 years ago by using clam shells like tweezers and pulling out their beard hair.

About 60,000 years ago, man discovered shaving, and started using sharpened obsidian and clam shells to shave their beards.
​

It may be longer ago than you think...

I'm trying to find a single clip of Fred Flintstone shaving... they'd take a clam shell, trap a bee inside it, and that's what they used to shave.

Historically... those near bodies of water where clams lived could use the shells as a tweezer. But properly-prepared obsidian tools are as sharp as stainless steel.

So that leaves out the men who didn't live near bodies of water where clams lived, and men who didn't live near volcanoes.

 

[warpus]

I had to google, and found this:

It is believed that Stone Age men started shaving 100,000 years ago by using clam shells like tweezers and pulling out their beard hair.

About 60,000 years ago, man discovered shaving, and started using sharpened obsidian and clam shells to shave their beards.
​

It may be longer ago than you think...

That's pretty fascinating. I wonder why the first humans started pulling out their beards with tweezer-like tools, that sounds painful. Something cultural that their tribe adopted I guess?

 

[Kyriakos]

That's pretty fascinating. I wonder why the first humans started pulling out their beards with tweezer-like tools, that sounds painful. Something cultural that their tribe adopted I guess?

I know of at least one case of a person in history (medieval times) who tripped over his beard and broke his neck.
At some point, it would have to be trimmed

 

[Birdjaguar]

I had to google, and found this:

It is believed that Stone Age men started shaving 100,000 years ago by using clam shells like tweezers and pulling out their beard hair.

About 60,000 years ago, man discovered shaving, and started using sharpened obsidian and clam shells to shave their beards.
​

It may be longer ago than you think...

Your link just makes those statements without any actual support. I'd prefer some actual evidence that clamshells were put to such a use.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Your link just makes those statements without any actual support. I'd prefer some actual evidence that clamshells were put to such a use.

There are several episodes of The Flintstones that show Fred or Barney using clamshells for shaving.

How much more evidence do you need?

 

[warpus]

I know of at least one case of a person in history (medieval times) who tripped over his beard and broke his neck.
At some point, it would have to be trimmed

If this is what kickstarted shaving, then that both amuses me and satisfies my curiosity.

I'm still tempted to think it was something like.. a shaman saying that he saw a vision of a beardless future that the gods showed him or something.. Or somebody important in a tribe being born not able to grow any facial hair, and the rest of the tribe taking it as an omen.. or.. as a way to differentiate them from a neighbouring tribe.. or something like that.

I suppose you could roll all of these into one and imagine somebody tripping on their beard and falling during an important hunt. and the shaman then having a vision or whatever

 

[Takhisis]

Hey, Valka, do people in the fandom still distinguish between Trekkies and Trekkers? Or is that old stuff for people like me who grew up without teh Internetz at home and watched Voyager back when it was airing live?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Hey, Valka, do people in the fandom still distinguish between Trekkies and Trekkers? Or is that old stuff for people like me who grew up without teh Internetz at home and watched Voyager back when it was airing live?

I'm one of the people who detests being referred to as a "Trekkie." I prefer the term "Trekker."

Please keep in mind that I also grew up without the internet (at home or anywhere else) and I watched not only Voyager, but also DS9 and TNG when they were airing live.

Watching "Encounter at Farpoint" was an interesting experience. It premiered the same day that our local SCA branch held our annual Harvest Feast. This included a heavy fighters' championship, and that particular year we were also honored with a visit from the King and Queen of An Tir.

The feast organizer had a VCR and a house with a large living room, and said that after the feast, anyone who wanted to watch the premiere of TNG was welcome to go to her place.

So after midnight, about 25 people crowded into her living room. About three-quarters of us were still in our medieval costumes, and only the King and Queen were allowed to sit on chairs. The rest of us had to sit on the floor.

We had a blast. But then there's an old SCA/Star Trek connection going back decades. Back in 1967, when the first "Save Star Trek" campaign happened, a bunch of people decided to picket the NBC studios. Word of this filtered out and reached the local branch of the SCA (the SCA is officially about 2 months older than Star Trek), and some of the people there decided to join the picket line... in costume (which they were wearing because it happened to be a meeting night).

I mentioned Bjo Trimble in another post, and her connection with the "Save Star Trek" letter-writing campaign. She and her husband were among the early SCA members and were at this event. They also joined the picketing, but opted to wear their mundane clothing. In her autobiography, Bjo Trimble said it was "in case anyone got arrested" - they figured that if cops got involved, there should be at least a few people who didn't look weird to explain that they were all really harmless people and not at all dangerous. Apparently it was quite a mix - people wearing ordinary clothes, some wearing Star Trek costumes, and others wearing medieval costumes, all carrying "Save Star Trek" signs.

 

[MaryKB]

If this is what kickstarted shaving, then that both amuses me and satisfies my curiosity.

I'm still tempted to think it was something like.. a shaman saying that he saw a vision of a beardless future that the gods showed him or something.. Or somebody important in a tribe being born not able to grow any facial hair, and the rest of the tribe taking it as an omen.. or.. as a way to differentiate them from a neighbouring tribe.. or something like that.

I suppose you could roll all of these into one and imagine somebody tripping on their beard and falling during an important hunt. and the shaman then having a vision or whatever

My understanding was always that the Romans popularized shaving their beards to distinguish themselves from the "uncivilized" barbarians.

An interesting fact: while men have been shaving for tens of thousands of years, women only started shaving less than a hundred years ago.

 

[warpus]

So in the 1800s all women had hairy legs and that was normal?

It's weird how women got more rights in society over time but there also seem more expectations in what they do to their bodies to attract men. Then again I suppose that's just one example, I watched a video of the way women used to dress 200 years ago and there's like 500 layers they had to put on, seems like it would have taken 7 hours to get ready for anything and also did not seem very comfortable

 

[The_J]

Don't forget that at this time you'd shave with that big barber knife...

Beards with the Romans n Greeks was AFAIK a fashion thing. If you look at the statues, you'll see for some time people without beards (like Alexander, Caesar or Octavian), but also ones with beard (like Carracalla or Nero).

 

[Kyriakos]

There was also beard fashion/sculpting, as visible in the statues too (I'm sure in literature, as well, but can't recall anything now)

Here's Poseidon:

 

[MaryKB]

So in the 1800s all women had hairy legs and that was normal?

Yeah, pretty much. And underarm hair too.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yeah, pretty much. And underarm hair too.

Maybe, but certainly not in antiquity. There's a lot of jokes in Aristophanes' Lysistrata, about how the men didn't like at all that women stopped shaving their legs to protest war.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hm....

 

[Takhisis]

I'm one of the people who detests being referred to as a "Trekkie." I prefer the term "Trekker."

Please keep in mind that I also grew up without the internet (at home or anywhere else) and I watched not only Voyager, but also DS9 and TNG when they were airing live.

Watching "Encounter at Farpoint" was an interesting experience. It premiered the same day that our local SCA branch held our annual Harvest Feast. This included a heavy fighters' championship, and that particular year we were also honored with a visit from the King and Queen of An Tir.

The feast organizer had a VCR and a house with a large living room, and said that after the feast, anyone who wanted to watch the premiere of TNG was welcome to go to her place.

So after midnight, about 25 people crowded into her living room. About three-quarters of us were still in our medieval costumes, and only the King and Queen were allowed to sit on chairs. The rest of us had to sit on the floor.

We had a blast. But then there's an old SCA/Star Trek connection going back decades. Back in 1967, when the first "Save Star Trek" campaign happened, a bunch of people decided to picket the NBC studios. Word of this filtered out and reached the local branch of the SCA (the SCA is officially about 2 months older than Star Trek), and some of the people there decided to join the picket line... in costume (which they were wearing because it happened to be a meeting night).

I mentioned Bjo Trimble in another post, and her connection with the "Save Star Trek" letter-writing campaign. She and her husband were among the early SCA members and were at this event. They also joined the picketing, but opted to wear their mundane clothing. In her autobiography, Bjo Trimble said it was "in case anyone got arrested" - they figured that if cops got involved, there should be at least a few people who didn't look weird to explain that they were all really harmless people and not at all dangerous. Apparently it was quite a mix - people wearing ordinary clothes, some wearing Star Trek costumes, and others wearing medieval costumes, all carrying "Save Star Trek" signs.

You know, the anecdotes are interesting and enlightening, but you never did say whether people distinguish between trekkers and trekkies.

My understanding was always that the Romans popularized shaving their beards to distinguish themselves from the "uncivilized" barbarians.

An interesting fact: while men have been shaving for tens of thousands of years, women only started shaving less than a hundred years ago.

The Romans' contemporaries in the Parthian Kingdom would actually wear fake beards. It's… complicated.

And welcome back!

 

[warpus]

Can't wait until the hot trend is for women to wear fake leg hair beards