Report: 'indisputable' evidence of US torture

I just learned what those hashtags mean less than a week ago. Seriously, I was educated about it on #fiftychat. So unless they mean something more than aggregrating twitter posts, I must answer no.
 
Commodore said:
Yes they should be prosecuted and if convicted, spend some time at Club Hague. What happened with me happened while I was embedded with the Iraqi Army. They were the ones doing the torturing, while I oversaw it. It was my job to report it, but I didn't because we were getting results. Plus it was me and one other American living with an entire company of IA soldiers. What do you think they would have done to us if we reported them?
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Now wait a second. Define 'getting results'. Do you mean you got accurate and actionable intel by doing this?
 
MobBoss said:
Now wait a second. Define 'getting results'. Do you mean you got accurate and actionable intel by doing this?
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Yes, I do mean that. Over time me and my Iraqi counterparts were able to collect enough information to roll-up 40 HVIs in a single operation. Not all the info came from interrogations though. Some of it came from my source network.
 
I never realized there was a coherent ethical case to be made against torture. Could someone refer me to one?
 
Commodore said:
Yes, I do mean that. Over time me and my Iraqi counterparts were able to collect enough information to roll-up 40 HVIs in a single operation. Not all the info came from interrogations though. Some of it came from my source network.
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Well, there ya go people. Proof that torture, as unpleasant as it may be, works from someone who knows. Kinda contrary to all that hubbub about torture not resulting in good intel. Ah well.
 
Cutlass said:
How is there not? Torture slows down getting answers and makes them less reliable.
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Ah, I see. Maybe you should tell that to the psychologists who oversee the torture. Should totally convince them of the error of their ways.
 
My objection to torture never relied on it being ineffective. I'm not sure it is ineffective.

My objection is simpler. You might call it quaint or even just stupid.
 
MobBoss said:
Well, there ya go people. Proof that torture, as unpleasant as it may be, works from someone who knows. Kinda contrary to all that hubbub about torture not resulting in good intel. Ah well.
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There's still the issue of how much it was actually needed, how much false info was generated by the program, and the other knock-off negative effects.

All that hubub generally looks at the overall effectiveness of the method. It's not based on anecdotes.

And no disrespect to meant to Commodore, but it's not like the case pro or con torture was completely on the bubble and some guy's testimony on the internet about his personal experience has just swung it.

Remember the conditions given previously for torture working: If they guys being tortured where certainly in-the-know and the information could be confirmed... then it's going to get beaten out of them. But that doesn't work on a large scale, and on a small scale you've got to look at whether or not it was necessary given what's already known.

To state that the case against torture working is "It never works." is attacking a strawman: The problems with torture - so far as just effectiveness goes - is based on the unreliability of the information from all the guys you torture. Not the usefulness of the information that turns out to be correct. Broken clocks, twice a day, and all that.

It's like advocating 18th century dentistry or psychiatry over 21th century methods. The old stuff works... sometimes. But it goes seriously wrong far more often, and at this point it would be - to use AlpStranger's word - stupid.

So "Torture never gives good information." isn't correct. But "torture doesn't work" is fine because it looks at the whole picture. Reliability, morale, bad PR, fueling vengeance, it's-just-wrong-ness, necessity... overall utility.

OTOH: If what you want is a cowed, hate-filled population that's waiting for a crack to show in your power to storm your palace... torture can work. If you don't really care too much about guilt or innocents, are just concerned with the short-term, and don't care about moral things like being evil, torture is fine.
 
AlpsStranger said:
My objection to torture never relied on it being ineffective. I'm not sure it is ineffective.

My objection is simpler. You might call it quaint or even just stupid.
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What, pray tell, is your objection? Don't make me beg.
 
Cutlass said:
How is there not? Torture slows down getting answers and makes them less reliable.
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And yet, we have direct testimony from Commodore, albeit anecdotal, that refutes your claim here.
 
MobBoss said:
And yet, we have direct testimony from Commodore, albeit anecdotal, that refutes your claim here.
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No, we don't. Commodore didn't offer any information on how long it took compared to other methods, or how reliable it was compared to other methods. I'm guessing it'd be hard for him to even know how it compared: It's such a fraught subject that pretty much everyone involved has a strong motive to lie, hyping it's effectiveness. Note I'm not questioning Commodore's first-hand-account - and maybe he does have first hand knowledge on those matters, too. Anyway - what I'm questioning is the reliability of pretty much everyone who might have given him information on torture time and reliability.
 
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