Returning Civ Leaders-Elimination Thread

[Morningcalm]

Abraham Lincoln 16 + 1 = 17 (Disagree with Zaarin about Lincoln's flaws. Lincoln did not start the war by enlisting the army, he started preparing for a war he would fight to preserve the Union and defeat those who would prefer slavery exist. The Confederacy would not peacefully agree to Lincoln's plans to remove slavery, so they too share responsibility for the Civil War. There was no guarantee the Confederacy would have fallen, and EVEN IF they did, what does it say to delay justice for the enslaved? Slaves suffered, in some cases, fates worse than death. As for the federal government, the nation of the United States as we know it would have fallen had Lincoln simply sat on his hands. The Confederacy and the secessionists within it posed not just a moral threat (slavery), but also a threat to the very fabric of the then-Union. I also see nothing wrong with Lincoln having increased federal power--if anything, the slavery issue highlighted the need for federal unity, at least on some issues, as opposed to allowing each state to do whatever it so pleased on all issues. While war is terrible, there are some causes for which fighting war makes sense. Lincoln had other virtues we have not covered here--he was a cunning and adept politician, engaged in military maneuvers and tactics, knew how to pick talented people, even those he disagreed with (hence the famous book Team of Rivals, about Lincoln's cabinet being composed of some people who were politically and personally opposed to each other, and Lincoln's ability to unite them). And as to the idea that Washington is the Only White Man in Iroquois heaven, I have yet to find any reliable supporting sources indicating such, and Washington was a more flawed leader (in terms of capability) than Lincoln, though both shared the same dogged determination to get things done. I repeat my earlier point as to Lincoln's relative noncontroversy and high repute among all American presidents, and my point as to his having a lasting legacy. Let me also repeat that Lincoln would fit well into Civ VI's leader agenda system)
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 15 - 3 = 12 (Agreed. Not the most compelling Inca leader by a long shot.)
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 32
Mansa Musa 36
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 6

 

[Zaarin]

@Morningcalm Slavery was an issue of the Civil War, but it was hardly the main one until Lincoln made the (entirely meaningless) Emancipation Proclamation (which only freed the slaves in the Confederacy, over whom it had no jurisdiction--recall that not all slave states seceded, and slaves within the Union were not freed by the proclamation). I'd also point out that, in the spiteful atmosphere of Reconstruction, emancipation often did very little in reality to help the former slaves; many of them remained in slavery in all but name well into the twentieth century. Slavery was not economically viable in the longterm in light of the collapsing cotton market; it was on its way out, Civil War or no. As for George Washington and the Iroquois opinion of him, try Facing East from Indian Country by Daniel K. Richter; the Iroquois--even the ones who were his enemies (recall that the League split in three during the War for Independence)--regarded him with a great deal of respect.

I am sure Zaarin would probably be happy with the likes of Grover Cleveland, particularly his first term where he vetoed pretty much everything Congress sent to him.

I don't think Grover Cleveland was a stellar president, but I think he was effective. I wouldn't care to see him as a civ leader, though.

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 33 (32 + 1) -- The Sun King does not accept second best.
Mansa Musa 36
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 2 (5 - 3) -- Let's go with Seondeok. Why include random female leaders like Catherine de Medici when you can have a female leader like Seondeok, who is regarded as one of the best leaders of her country even by the highly patriarchal Confucian historians?
Zara Yaqob 6

 

[Guandao]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 33
Mansa Musa 36
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II (22+1)=23 One of the greatest Khmer leaders. I would like to see him return.
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon (2-3)=0 He's been in two games, but it's time for another Korean leader to shine, preferably Seondeok...
Zara Yaqob 6

 

[IgorS]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 22 + 1 = 23 - I just feel like supporting this guy, as well as the return of Denmark as a civ.
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 33
Mansa Musa 36
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Zara Yaqob 6 - 3 = 3 - Give us Menelik already!

 

[Kimiimaro]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 23
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 33
Mansa Musa 36+1=37 - Can we give the richest man in world history 40 points?
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Zara Yaqob 3-3=0 (ELIMANATED) - Not as interresting as the other people on this list.

 

[Zaarin]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 23
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 7 (10 - 3) -- We need a Komnenos, ideally Alexios but most of them were pretty awesome.
Louis XIV 34 (33 + 1) -- He is the State.
Mansa Musa 37
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15

 

[Siptah]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 24 (23+1) Great leader for a civ that we don't really need right now, but I'd like to see in one or two years.
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4 (7-3) I want a leader from later stages of the Byzantine Empire. Good thing about Justinian is that he would be speaking latin instead of another greek speaking leader.
Louis XIV 34
Mansa Musa 37
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15

 

[Guandao]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII (15-3)=12 Not that great of a leader for England. Would rather have his daughter in the game instead.
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 34
Mansa Musa 37
Mehmed II (22+1)=23 Good choice for an Ottoman Sultan other than Suleiman.
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15

 

[IgorS]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 32 + 1 = 33 - Ashoka's turn to get my vote.
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 12
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 34
Mansa Musa 37
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15 - 3 = 12 - Not as unique, we need more diversity for Japan.

 

[Morningcalm]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26 + 1 = 27 (Plus one for one my favorite ancient leaders)
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 12 - 3 = 9 (An incompetent and vicious leader known for beheading his wives. Although feminists may not be Civ's target audience, I don't see how any would approve of his inclusion as a major leader in Civ, though he would be a welcome inclusion in a scenario.)
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 34
Mansa Musa 37
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 12

@Zaarin First, I never said slavery was the main issue of the Civil War--rather, the War became focused on it as it was the crux of the Confederacy's discomfort with the perceived overreach of the "North" and it was a key issue of the overall war as a representation of the extent to which the Union's unity could be tested. It's true that Lincoln's first priority was to preserve the Union, rather than to end slavery (but that later did become his goal, however reluctantly). As far as Reconstruction--no one denies there was discomfort. But it's an exaggeration to say many remained in slavery well into the twentieth century. Rather, the issue became how to reintegrate freed men into a society so unused to black people with rights above that of slaves. Slavery may well have been on its way out, but that by no means guarantees that the Confederacy would have fallen on its own terms. Not read that book about Washington but will keep an eye out for it. (Though one could easily point out Washington's many other flaws as commander in chief, in particular his inability to hold the peace among members of his cabinet).

I will add that Abraham Lincoln is consistently considered the greatest U.S. president in scholarly rankings; this adds more support for his inclusion in Civ VI. John Adams, while a fun personality, would be a bit tougher to find an agenda for, and is not as renowned or respected.

 

[God of Kings]

John Adams is an interesting president.

However, he isn't on regularly circulated currency or on Mount Rushmore.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 9-3=6 - English history is rich and full of great kings and queens to pick from. And if we need a Tudor, Elizabeth I would be better choice than him.
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 34
Mansa Musa 37+1=38 - Must... Get... 40... Points...
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 12

 

[Zaarin]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 6
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 35 (34 + 1) -- The Sun King does not suffer competition.
Mansa Musa 35 (38 - 3) -- All is right in the world...
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 12

 

[Morningcalm]

Abraham Lincoln 17 + 1 = 18 (See reasons above. Too iconic to exclude, if we really wanted a second American leader, it should be this guy)
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 6 - 3 = 3 (Incompetent, arrogant and murderous. If you're going to be murderous, at least be a better ruler, and keep out of wars you don't win?)
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 35
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 12

 

[Guandao]

Abraham Lincoln 18
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut (14+1)=15 I don't mind Hatshepsut returning. She's better than Cleo.
Henry VIII (3-3)=0 This is vengeance for his wives! I prefer other male English Kings.
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 35
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 12

 

[Siptah]

Abraham Lincoln 18
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 36 (35+1) Deserves to lead this field. Sorry Mansa Musa, I like you, too, but Louis just seems too fitting for this civ version to be left out.
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 9 (12-3) a non medieval ruler would be preferred.

 

[Manifold]

Abraham Lincoln 19 (18+1) very important person
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 33 (36-3) not a second Renaissance leader for France
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 9

 

[Kimiimaro]

Abraham Lincoln 19
Ashoka 33
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 26+1=27 - He was great general. And great merchant. And great Shophet. And great builder. And great admiral. And that's enough for being one of the top priorities.
Hatshepsut 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 4
Louis XIV 33
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 9-3=6 - Japan doesn't really need another leader. And if there should be one, let it be emperor Meiji.

 

[WillowBrook]

Abraham Lincoln 19
Ashoka 34 (33+1) we need another Indian leader
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 27
Hatshepsut 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 1 (4-3) not a bad choice, but the competition is getting stiff
Louis XIV 33
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 6

 

[Zaarin]

Abraham Lincoln 16 (19 - 3) -- I want an earlier president if America needs a second leader.
Ashoka 34
Canute/Cnut the Great 24
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 27
Hannibal Barca 27
Hatshepsut 15
Huayna Capac 12
João II 25
Justinian I 1
Louis XIV 34 (33 + 1) -- It's not like he and CdM were contemporaries or even close to being contemporaries. I wouldn't mind seeing a Medieval leader for France (Francis I or Louis IX, for example), but Louis XIV has to be one of the biggest personalities in history--this game was made for him.
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 23
Suryavarman II 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 6