Returning Civ Leaders-Elimination Thread

[Boris Gudenuf]

Abraham Lincoln 16 (15 + 1)To mis-quote the French Henri, "The Second Inaugural Address is worth any number of votes..."
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 7
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 25
Hatshepsut 13 (16 - 3) Women leaders are fine, but what did she actually accomplish? There are too man other good and intriguing choices for Egypt.
Henry VIII 14
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 30
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Mursilis 2
Suryavarman II 21
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 11
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[Morningcalm]

Abraham Lincoln 16 + 1 = 17 (Lincoln is a hugely recognizable American president, and not because he was a bad leader, or even because he was assassinated. He ushered in a lasting legacy and resolved one of America's greatest crises)
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 7
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 25
Hatshepsut 13
Henry VIII 14
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 30
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Mursilis 2 - 3 = (ELIMINATED. Firaxis should at least figure out which Mursili this is meant to represent, and there are worthier Hittite rulers male and female)
Suryavarman II 21
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 11
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[Guandao]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 7
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 25
Hatshepsut 13
Henry VIII 14
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 30
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II (21+1)=22 As one of the Khmer's greatest rulers, I would welcome his return. I'm guessing the SE Asian civ in the upcoming DLC is probably Siam, but whatever.
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon (11-3)=8 A dynastic founder, but there are more interesting Korean leaders to choose from.
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[IgorS]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 7
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 25
Hatshepsut 13 + 1 = 14 - Would like to support Hatshepsut. We have a female leader for Egypt, but this female leader is so much worthier.
Henry VIII 14
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 30
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 8 - 3 = 5 - I prefer Sejong.
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[Kimiimaro]

Abraham Lincoln 17
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 7-3=4 - He's too close to Victoria in time. I'd rather have a medieval leader.
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 25+1=26 - Once again, I'm very sorry for downvoting you! You are one of my top priorities now.
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 14
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 30
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[Zaarin]

Abraham Lincoln 14 (17 - 3) -- If by "resolved the crisis" you mean he preserved the Union at the cost of over a million deaths, the near genocide of the remaining Southeastern Native Americans (and indirectly the Sioux), and the utter destruction of the American federation, yes, he did that--but if you ask me the price was way too high. And completely unrelated to my dislike of Lincoln, if America must have a second leader I'd prefer to see someone from before 1820.
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 4
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14 -- Someone asked her accomplishments. She expanded the kingdom, she waged several successful campaigns against the Libyans, she expanded trade, she built monuments--there's no question that she was one of Egypt's best pharaohs of either sex. That being said, I want Akhenaten, but Hatshepsut is without question a worthy choice for Egypt.
Henry VIII 14
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 31 (30 + 1) -- This game was practically custom built for him.
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 9

Edited to assign Cleopatra to the correct civilization...

 

[God of Kings]

Hatshepsut 14 -- Someone asked her accomplishments. She expanded the kingdom, she waged several successful campaigns against the Libyans, she expanded trade, she built monuments--there's no question that she was one of Egypt's best pharaohs of either sex. That being said, I want Akhenaten, but Hatshepsut is without question a worthy choice for England.

When did she rule England?

 

[Zaarin]

When did she rule England?

Oh, you know, England and Egypt are right next door, practically the same civilization. It's a little known historical fact that Hatshepsut and Elizabeth I were the same person.

 

[Kimiimaro]

When did she rule England?

I wanted to make this post. You were first. Congratulations.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Oh, you know, England and Egypt are right next door, practically the same civilization. It's a little known historical fact that Hatshepsut and Elizabeth I were the same person.

Part of the little-known Tudorshet Dynasty of the Middling Kingdom, along with her father Tutankhenry, who built eight pyramids but tore down all of them because the internal chambers weren't big enough...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Abraham Lincoln 14 - you realize a preference for "someone before 1820" leaves out Millard Fillmore. Egads, man, I can't support that!
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 1 (3 - 1) I realize that this not only eliminates potentially some great quotations, but also the UU Matilda II Tank, which Soviet troops referred to as the "English Workman" because it was tough, reliable, - and a little slow."
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14 - Question answered succinctly: Thank you.
Henry VIII 15 (14 + 1) English or Egyptian, still a big enough personality to include ...
Huayna Capac 22
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 31
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[Morningcalm]

Abraham Lincoln 14 + 1 = 15 (Abraham Lincoln was not alone responsible for the "millions of deaths"; if I recall, I believe the Confederacy and the Union both killed many. If war had to be fought to end slavery, so be it (noting nevertheless that this wasn't likely the primary goal of the conflict for many); if we look to World War II, we may note it also resulted in millions of deaths, but no one blames Churchill for that. Nor should Lincoln alone be blamed for the Civil War. As for the Native Americans, Abraham Lincoln was nowhere near as bad as Andrew Jackson or other US presidents revered by some, and Lincoln lacked vehemence against Native Americans, though it was clear he disliked them (to be fair, the Dakota killed hundreds during the Civil War, and such deaths warranted a response). Many famous/revered American leaders disliked the Native Americans. Washington was known as a destroyer of towns after setting aflame numerous Iroquois villages, for example. But he is no less revered as a U.S. leader, which is the key focal point here (Andrew Jackson, by comparison, lacks the great achievements to offset his attempted genocide of Native Americans). Also, Lincoln signed for only 38 deaths, rather than the initial 203 that could have been expected of leaders in the same era, which is an 87% pardoning of those Native Americans sentenced. Also, please explain your claim that Lincoln destroyed the American federation--from what I understand, a nation emerged after the Civil War, even if begrudgingly. Lincoln remains one of the few noncontroversial American presidents and is consistently on the list of greatest presidents--this is not only due to awestruck reverence following his assassination. It is because he created lasting change, which our more recent presidents have failed to effect, and which arguably even John Adams failed to effect.)
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill 1
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 22 - 3 = 18 (There are far better Inca leaders.)
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 31
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 9

 

[Guandao]

Abraham Lincoln (15+1)=16 Despite his flaws, I think Abe deserves the voice acting treatment. I'm tired of Washington. And the other early Presidents don't really interest me that much.
Ashoka 31
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Churchill (1-3)=0 Churchill is eliminated! Too recent a leader for my liking.
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 18
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 31
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 9

To Morningcalm, who are the better Inca rulers besides Pachacuti?

 

[God of Kings]

Abraham Lincoln 14 + 1 = 15 (Abraham Lincoln was not alone responsible for the "millions of deaths"; if I recall, I believe the Confederacy and the Union both killed many. If war had to be fought to end slavery, so be it (noting nevertheless that this wasn't likely the primary goal of the conflict for many); if we look to World War II, we may note it also resulted in millions of deaths, but no one blames Churchill for that. Nor should Lincoln alone be blamed for the Civil War. As for the Native Americans, Abraham Lincoln was nowhere near as bad as Andrew Jackson or other US presidents revered by some, and Lincoln lacked vehemence against Native Americans, though it was clear he disliked them (to be fair, the Dakota killed hundreds during the Civil War, and such deaths warranted a response). Many famous/revered American leaders disliked the Native Americans. Washington was known as a destroyer of towns after setting aflame numerous Iroquois villages, for example. But he is no less revered as a U.S. leader, which is the key focal point here (Andrew Jackson, by comparison, lacks the great achievements to offset his attempted genocide of Native Americans). Also, Lincoln signed for only 38 deaths, rather than the initial 203 that could have been expected of leaders in the same era, which is an 87% pardoning of those Native Americans sentenced. Also, please explain your claim that Lincoln destroyed the American federation--from what I understand, a nation emerged after the Civil War, even if begrudgingly. Lincoln remains one of the few noncontroversial American presidents and is consistently on the list of greatest presidents--this is not only due to awestruck reverence following his assassination. It is because he created lasting change, which our more recent presidents have failed to effect, and which arguably even John Adams failed to effect.)

Don't forget the persecution of the First Nations (especially the Métis during the Red River Rebellion) under Canada's first prime minister, Sir John A. Macdonald.

 

[IgorS]

OK, not much is left to choose from, so let us get to it:

Abraham Lincoln 16
Ashoka 31 + 1 = 32 - A big fan of this guy.
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Frederick the Great 26
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 18
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 31
Mansa Musa 35
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 9 - 3 = 6 - Not a fan of this guy.

 

[Zaarin]

(Abraham Lincoln was not alone responsible for the "millions of deaths"; if I recall, I believe the Confederacy and the Union both killed many.

The Confederacy didn't start the war; Lincoln did by calling up the army. I'm not pro-Confederate, but the Confederacy was doomed to collapse from the day they seceded. No blood needed to be shed at all. Lincoln was a blunt instrument to whom every problem was a nail. (I do love his wry sense of humor though: "If you're not using the army, I'd like to borrow it." )

Also, please explain your claim that Lincoln destroyed the American federation--from what I understand, a nation emerged after the Civil War, even if begrudgingly.

The United States, as its name implies, was designed as a union of sovereign states. The Civil War killed state sovereignty, transferring the power intended for the states to the federal government, an unfortunate trend that his continued inexorably ever since. (And no, Lincoln was not the first to expand the power of the federal government at the expense of the states--Andrew Jackson nearly sparked a civil year forty years earlier by doing the same--but whereas sovereignty was restored to the states after the Jacksonian era, the post-Civil War era has been nothing but a steady rise in power of the federal government, with a few reprieves under the likes of Calvin Coolidge. No, I'm not a libertarian. I think the federal government absolutely has its place. I simply think it's grown too powerful for its own good, and that sovereignty should rest first with the states, then with the people, as intended by our Founders: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I suppose the difference of opinion can be summed up by saying that Lincoln believed the Jacksonian credo: "Our Union must be preserved"; I happen to agree with Calhoun: "Our Union, after Liberty most dear." I'd rather have sacrificed the Union for the sake of preserving state sovereignty; the Union would have been restored after the Confederacy collapsed anyway--and slavery would have collapsed with it.

Also to clarify one other statement, that concerning Native American genocide. I'm not saying that Lincoln had the sort of anti-Native vendetta that characterized Jackson or Polk. The Civil War was yet another no-win situation for the Southeastern Native Americans: they obviously had little choice but to side with the Confederacy, and since they sided with the Confederacy they obviously became enemies of the Union. But again, had there been no Civil War, had Lincoln not called in the army in a knee-jerk reaction, perhaps it would not have resulted in the almost complete annihilation of what remained of the "Five Civilized Tribes." I also have to correct you a little about Washington: yes, he was called the Town Destroyer by the Iroquois...but they also described him as the only white man in Heaven. Washington's attitude toward the Native Americans was that they were equals, but that their society was inferior; he proposed a policy of "civilizing" the Native Americans and welcoming them into American society, not exterminating them. Adams and Jefferson held similar views (probably one of the few things they agreed on), as did Madison. It still amounts to cultural genocide, yes, but I think we can all agree it's a more enlightened attitude than Jackson's "kill all the savages" policy.

Sorry for derailing the thread. To be honest, my preference for an early president is a bigger factor in my downvotes than my dislike of Lincoln. I simply wanted to respond to Morningcalm's questions about my views.

 

[Phrozen]

I am sure Zaarin would probably be happy with the likes of Grover Cleveland, particularly his first term where he vetoed pretty much everything Congress sent to him.

 

[God of Kings]

I am sure Zaarin would probably be happy with the likes of Grover Cleveland, particularly his first term where he vetoed pretty much everything Congress sent to him.

Cleveland is also the only two-term president not to serve consecutive terms.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Abraham Lincoln 16
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Frederick the Great 26-3=23 - I don't feel Germany needs another leader. Although this is good choice...
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 18
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 31
Mansa Musa 35+1=36 - Eh... Why not? He was so rich he economically devastated Arabia with all gold he brought there during his Hajj (Islamic pilgrimage to Mekka). And that is definitely cool.
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 6

 

[Siptah]

Abraham Lincoln 16
Ashoka 32
Canute/Cnut the Great 22
Frederick the Great 23
Hammurabi 26
Hannibal Barca 26
Hatshepsut 14
Henry VIII 15
Huayna Capac 15 (18-3) Overrated. I'd prefer Tupaq Inka Yupanki or Pachakutiq, even earlier and less well documented kings seem to be better options, like Inka Ruka.
João II 25
Justinian I 10
Louis XIV 32 (31+1) another vote for the biggest personality on the list.
Mansa Musa 36
Mehmed II 22
Suryavarman II 22
Tokugawa Ieyasu 15
Wang Kon 5
Zara Yaqob 6