[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: War News Thread: Round 6

[saamohod]

But let's have some fun, not everything is gloom and doom.

Putin try to use an old french map to prove that Ukraine isn't a real country (where are the clowns saying that Russia doesn't want to end Ukraine, BTW ?).
Fun fact is, the map actually has "Ukraine" written on it.
THAT is the level of competence I expect from a Russian setup.

Sadly no one pointed out to him that the city of his birth is not on the map either.

That's the deluge and immediate aftermath. The area was part of Poland-Lithuania. I am pretty sure Putin didn't need a french map to establish that Ukraine was not a country in the 1670s...
And if you didn't realize, the name is of a region.

What about Greece? Not trolling, but my genuine curiosity. Is Greece present on that map? I believe a bunch of modern European countries aren't there on the map because they didn't exist as political entities back then. Their ethnos did exist though. Doesn't mean those countries aren't real or shouldn't exist.
Strictly speaking, Russian Federation isn't there either.

 

[Kyriakos]

Regions get named stuff for a variety of reasons; clearly Putin didn't need this map to know Ukraine wasn't a country back then.

 

[Akka]

I'm sure people not hellbent into not getting the point, actually got the point.
Can't do much for the others.

 

[FriendlyFire]

What about Greece? Not trolling, but my genuine curiosity. Is Greece present on that map?

Map appears only to cover eastern Europe
in 1670 Venice owned Crete and the Ottomans the rest of Greece, prior to that Greece was ruled by the Byzantines
Our Greek friend who is into history likely is well aware of this

Spoiler :

 

[saamohod]

clearly Putin didn't need this map to know Ukraine wasn't a country back then.

Maybe. But what's clear to me is that the point of that performance was for the n-th time to push the narrative that Ukraine shouldn't exist because it's not on the 17th century map.

Spoiler :

Imagine Pootin's shock if someone showed him a 17th century map of North America.

 

[red_elk]

Greece's statehood has a history since ancient times. Ukraine as a country didn't exist prior to the 20-th century.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Brothers morale is high

 

[Sarin]

Greece's statehood has a history since ancient times. Ukraine as a country didn't exist prior to the 20-th century.

Not true. Kievan Rus, for example.

And what does that have to do with its right to exist? Earth is full of countries created recently. Russian buddies in subsaharan Africa, for example.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Greece's statehood has a history since ancient times. Ukraine as a country didn't exist prior to the 20-th century.

Let me guess Transisanta dosnt exist, Karlingrad dosnt exist /s
Then there is entire Africa with the creation of countries by the colonial powers

 

[red_elk]

Not true. Kievan Rus, for example.

Kievan Rus was neither Ukraine nor Russia. It's common ancestor of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine.

 

[Kyriakos]

Not true. Kievan Rus, for example.

And what does that have to do with its right to exist? Earth is full of countries created recently. Russian buddies in subsaharan Africa, for example.

It's not really the same landmass. And afaik Russia also claims ties to it.

It should go without saying that I am not claiming at all this means "Ukraine shouldn't exist". In fact I am not aware if that is actually the official line in Russia (@red_elk ?). Besides, clearly the goal of Russia is to annex the territories to the east, not all of Ukraine.

 

[Sarin]

Kievan Rus was neither Ukraine nor Russia. It's common ancestor of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine.

By the same logic, Russia can't be considered a successor to Soviet Union.

 

[red_elk]

In fact I am not aware if that is actually the official line in Russia (@red_elk ?).

Official line is "denazification" aka "regime change", as far as I know, not destruction of the country.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is still a very tall order; reinstalling some russian-friendly government could have been done if Kiev fell, but not now.

 

[Akka]

It should go without saying that I am not claiming at all this means "Ukraine shouldn't exist".

That's actually one point where I do believe you.

In fact I am not aware if that is actually the official line in Russia (@red_elk ?). Besides, clearly the goal of Russia is to annex the territories to the east, not all of Ukraine.

The "official line" in Russia is a web of lies that change from one day to the next, and it's even a common joke, including among ultra-nationalist Russians, that there is no clear line.
The actual real policy of Russia, though, has been obvious for years and has been proved several times since the invasion, that YES Russia aim at entirely annexing Ukraine, and it takes a very deliberate effort to pretend not seeing it.
If Russia is aiming only at keeping the east, it's because it's unable to aim for more, not because it doesn't want more. Let's not play dumb.

---

To get back at the recent raid in Belgorod, we had the Russian version, now let's see the Ukrainian one :

Obviously partial, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, yes, goals change depending on what is happening with the campaign. Napoleon could have given back a few territories and have peace, then remove himself from all of Germany and have peace prior to the battle of Leipzig, but after that he wasn't allowed to keep anything of his conquests.
Likewise with Russia, their goal changes, it's not the same it was prior to the abandonment of the encirclement of Kiev.

 

[red_elk]

By the same logic, Russia can't be considered a successor to Soviet Union.

Russia is internationally recognized as Soviet successor, inherited Soviet debts, treaties and commitments, strategic nuclear weapons, UN seat and status of permanent UNSC member.

 

[Sarin]

Russia is internationally recognized as Soviet successor, inherited Soviet debts, treaties and commitments, strategic nuclear weapons, UN seat and status of permanent UNSC member.

And Ukraine is recognized as a sovereign, independent country the same way (except for UNSC permanent seat). Either way, denying Ukrainian state's right for independent, self-determined existence is denying the same to Russia.

 

[red_elk]

And Ukraine is recognized as a sovereign, independent country

I was replying to your claim that it was successor of Kievan Rus.

 

[EvaDK]

Sadly no one pointed out to him that the city of his birth is not on the map either.

Not only that; its geographical location on this old French map, is part of the Swedish Empire at the time.

Russian Ultra-Nationalism and incompetence go hand-in-hand, it seems.