Scandinavia SUCKS

[Akka]

I don't think it does. And you're right of course. If you want to look at the total "disposable income + public services" the average person receives, just look at the GDP per capita (adjusted for PPP). The problem is that it can be highly unequal, which is why I posted that chart on the distribution of disposable income.

The GDP per capita just indicate how much money the median person adds to the country's economy. Even with adjusted for PPP, it doesn't give any information on much money a person need, rather how much purchasing power she has.

That's the problem with such comparative statistics : they are ultimately very limited when it comes to adress "quality of life", because it depends on a lot of hidden factors/costs.
A simple example like the cost of higher education (which seems so high in the USA that it cripples lots of people for decades after they finish their studies, while it is mostly free in many EU countries) is completely hidden from most statistic, while having a tremendous effect in practice.
Other obvious example are the ubiquitous healthcare system (and social safety net in general), subsidized transportation, regulations on food quality, consumer rights protection, etc.

These are very difficult to measure, but have a large impact on what you can afford and how financially free you are in practice, and the quality of life in general.

 

[warpus]

When my sister finished school, her debt was $60,000+. She was paying $700 a month after she graduated to pay it back.

The education system here in North America is broken... and it's not even getting better, it's getting worse.

Why would I want to have kids? here in North America? That's crazy talk.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Another hidden cost may be the cost of dating. I was a bit baffled when I noticed male highschoolers taking their girl for a date to a restaurant (and naturally paying the bill). O.O

@warpus
Have it your way of course and I don't know how serious you just were. But I wouldn't underestimate the joy and perhaps more importantly the meaning kids can bring to the table. I sometimes think that is a mistake many young or relatively young people do nowadays.

 

[Farm Boy]

When my sister finished school, her debt was $60,000+. She was paying $700 a month after she graduated to pay it back.

The education system here in North America is broken... and it's not even getting better, it's getting worse.

Why would I want to have kids? here in North America? That's crazy talk.

Because money is just one thing. And this is just one thing within money. Putting an emphasis on responsible expenditures is wise. Putting that much emphasis on material wealth is crazy talk!

Another hidden cost may be the cost of dating. I was a bit baffled when I noticed male highschoolers taking their girl for a date to a restaurant (and naturally paying the bill). O.O

Yup. Usually whoever did the asking out. Add to it cost of transportation. But seriously, once you're past the first dates you can usually expect the idea of going out to be of both parties and they'll generally be sharing at that point unless somebody is dumb, or a princess, or the combination of both.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Yes I figured or hoped as much. But it just seemed so odd to my German eyes ^^ So... mature I guess? Or one could also say ritualized. O fancy. I mean for this young age. But that is just the American way

Usually whoever did the asking out.

I guess it is just unlucky coincidence that usually this person is male

 

[Farm Boy]

I guess it is just unlucky coincidence that usually this person is male

Well, it's a usually sort of thing. One of my least favorite parts of that particular game was seeing somebody basically suggest that they be asked out and leave the destination up to the (usually)male. That passes along the hook of the bill. Didn't really notice that in high school though, that seemed to be more of a college "Hey, take me out to the bar and get me drunk" sort of thing. That wasn't normal though. Those were generally girls to avoid. But hey, I also didn't date a terribly large amount. Low patience for that sort of stuff.

 

[aelf]

People who litter or jaywalk shouldn't preach to others about not littering or jaywalking, now should they?

And for the record I never litter. I jaywalk all the time, and certainly don't criticize others for jaywalking.

Indeed, people who don't donate all their money to the unfortunate shouldn't preach to others about donating all their money to the unfortunate. They can still criticise those who don't support policies that benefit the unfortunate, though.

 

[luiz]

Indeed, people who don't donate all their money to the unfortunate shouldn't preach to others about donating all their money to the unfortunate. They can still criticise those who don't support policies that benefit the unfortunate, though.

No, people who choose to spend their money on useless crap over saving actual human lives perhaps should think twice about calling anyone selfish.

They are free to advocate policies aimed at helping people, to argue for those policies and even criticize the lack of better policies (preferably doing some self-criticism too). But they shouldn't point fingers at other people for their lack of generosity, nor pontificate in a holier-than-thou tone. Simple, no?

 

[Traitorfish]

I agree with Luiz; people who suck the living blood of the proletariat aren't entitled to criticise people who don't suck the living blood of the proletariat. So it'll be socialism for all just as soon as people learn some manners.

 

[luiz]

People who still use the word "proletariat" outside of a historic context probably shouldn't make any comments whatsoever. That's another good rule that would improve the tone of any debate.

 

[warpus]

@warpus
Have it your way of course and I don't know how serious you just were. But I wouldn't underestimate the joy and perhaps more importantly the meaning kids can bring to the table. I sometimes think that is a mistake many young or relatively young people do nowadays.

Oh yeah, I'm sure. I'm just saying North America is increasingly becoming a place I wouldn't want to raise kids in. Which for now suits me fine, as I have no plans to have kids in the forseeable future anyway.

 

[Farm Boy]

Violent crime rates are down. Fatality rates from accidents are down. Products are relatively safe. Diapers are amazing compared to 15 years ago. Car seats are fantastic. Kids' cereals have less sugar. Less children pick up smoking cigarettes than two decades ago. US health insurance now covers them an extra half decade. Is the cost of educational loans, while darned important, really that important?

 

[gay_Aleks]

I don't know. Maybe other countries will stop mocking you for being stupid?

Alternatively, of course, you could use all that military gear to conquer said countries, so it's a win-win!

 

[warpus]

Is the cost of educational loans, while darned important, really that important?

Yeah dude, it would set me back.. what.. 50 grand per kid at least? Probably a lot more by the time I have the kids in the first place and they grow up to be old enough to attend university.

Either I pony up the cash or bring someone into the world with the full knowledge that they will finish school with a near-crippling debt.. and that's just not cool. Not my idea of a fun time. Why would I put myself or someone I love through something like that?

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, I guess that is a criteria you can make the judgement on if you want. I guess it's just never been a thing in my family that one's parents could afford to send you to school. I paid my loans off with scraping and working throughout college, we've paid off over half of my wife's in less than 10 years too. If finances were tighter, we would have used community colleges for the first 2 years instead of both going straight for 4-years and including things like study abroad. Don't get me wrong, higher education and the funding thereof gets worse and more abusive every year: but it's just one thing. It's certainly less important than the likelihood that your son will be shot during a mugging, or die in a car accident, or of lung cancer. I mean, perspective man!

 

[warpus]

IMO near crippling debt when you finish school is something I should be considering. It should be the near of the top of my list of things to consider, in fact. "Well, at least he/she won't get shot in the face" is just not something I think about. If I have to - I'm in the wrong country to begin with.

 

[luiz]

I think what Farm Boy is getting at is that the debt isn't necessarily crippling. He and his wife managed it. Nearly all my colleagues graduated with tens of thousands of dollars of debt, didn't get any help from their parents in that department, and after 4-5 year most of the debt is gone. It's nearly interest-free after all. It's certainly burdensome, but I wouldn't call it crippling. It's still a smart move to go to college, compared to not going and having no debt (most of the time anyway. Not always).

 

[Farm Boy]

IMO near crippling debt when you finish school is something I should be considering. It should be the near of the top of my list of things to consider, in fact. "Well, at least he/she won't get shot in the face" is just not something I think about. If I have to - I'm in the wrong country to begin with.

Well, once the kiddo picks up bronchitis as an infant, you start needing to worry if (s)he is asthmatic enough to be suffocating on clean air, once (s)he starts toddling you start needing to worry if a car is going to back over them. Once they start leaving the house as teens, you start needing to worry if they are going to die as the passenger in a car(cause of death #1), as the driver of a car, as the victim of a crime, if they'll be raped in high school or college. Those are things you just want to not think about. But you will.

 

[warpus]

Well, once the kiddo picks up bronchitis as an infant, you start needing to worry if (s)he is asthmatic enough to be suffocating on clean air, once (s)he starts toddling you start needing to worry if a car is going to back over them. Once they start leaving the house as teens, you start needing to worry if they are going to die as the passenger in a car(cause of death #1), as the driver of a car, as the victim of a crime, if they'll be raped in high school or college. Those are things you just want to not think about. But you will.

Oh yes, definitely, but in the end a society that doesn't value a child's education and puts such a huge financial burden on it is not really compatible with what I would call an environment that's well suited to my needs as a parent and the needs of my offspring. For example, I am sure that my niece is going to be fine in terms of having her college paid for - we are all helping out, but in the end it is not even something we should have to think about. And yet we do.

Luiz, It doesn't have to be a crippling debt, but for many many people it is.

I am not selfish enough to have kids just for the sake of having that experience - if I don't think the environment is well suited for child rearing and such.

 

[jackelgull]

I think in some cases it largely depends on the kid. I have diabetes, so my parents have to worry about the cost of my equipment (there was a point where my family 's health insurance was so bad we had to pay a hundred dollars per month for my supplies), and make sure to monitor my blood sugar all the time.