SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

Okay, the Heroic Epic can be built ASAP, but don't we lose the ability to build the Heroic Epic if our Level 4 unit (8 Experience Points) dies?

Even if not, we'd want a defender (a Catapult is not a good defender against Axemen) so as not to needlessly lose a unit, but even moreso if we must keep the 8-XP unit alive until after the Heroic Epic has been completed.
 
Okay, the Heroic Epic can be built ASAP, but don't we lose the ability to build the Heroic Epic if our Level 4 unit (8 Experience Points) dies?

Even if not, we'd want a defender (a Catapult is not a good defender against Axemen) so as not to needlessly lose a unit, but even moreso if we must keep the 8-XP unit alive until after the Heroic Epic has been completed.

No - as soon as we get a thrice-promoted unit, HE is unlocked forever.
Also, since promotions heal, and we can certainly take shock, our elephant will have very good odds defending against an axe. Since they are city defence axes, they won't attack out without good odds.
 
I think the main reason to have two 5xp elephants for the first attack is that we have a decent chance of losing the first battle and we want the same odds immediately. Otherwise, when we come back the first defending axe will have gained a promotion or two and be harder to kill. The first WE could be poprushed with max OF to get both out quickly. Both should keep 1 promotion in reserve, as ZPV mentioned, so they can promote immediately.

We probably want to use the two chops to hurry the HE.
 
I have never seen a Barb City manually build a Spearman, so I'm not sure that building one is supported in the code. If we sent 2 War Elephants using a (possibly whipped) Galley, we'd at least be able to see if a Barb Spearman existed before we landed.

That said, we'd have to watch out for a Barb Galley coming out of nowhere and sinking our entire army.


Is the thinking that we will attack with a Cat first or no?
 
Since no one is stepping up, I guess I'm playing again? I would aim to play the next TS to HBR+Construction. The big question mark on this is whether we can get Construction in trade, though I suspect it will do nothing for our attack dates.

Based on my previous testing, I think that self-researching those two techs would take us approximately to 225 BC, which is T+11 (hard to estimate TR income at this point). At that stage, Ivory and Washington would approximately just complete their barracks (having previously completed a LH and GLib respectively), without even starting on stable. I was intending to 2pop Pigs once and also get an extra worker from there, which means no barracks or LH (doubt we really want an LH there anyway). Gems would still be on a WB for Bridge City and Stone not done its library. Marble would have about whipped the library for max OF into LH.

Has anyone else done testing?

Edit: xpost
 
What you are suggesting sounds reasonable so far, but this comment comes from someone who can't access the game and thus doesn't have precise knowledge of the current situation.

How many more Cities do we need Settlers for? Is it just 1 more for Bridge City? If yes, do you know where it's coming from?

ZPV mentioned getting 2 Workers in the short term... is getting 1 in this brief turnset period good enough or do we want to try and get 2 EDIT: at least start work on a second one in the next 11 turns or so?


Also, if we won't yet be starting on a Stable before learning both Horseback Riding + Construction, maybe we should go Construction -> Horseback Riding, in the hopes of getting Horseback Riding in trade. If it'll be tight, though, I guess we should just stick to our Horseback Riding -> Construction plan, to ascertain that we will not be delaying our building of our first Stable.
 
We can start on Stable earlier, I think.
I started on a first draft of my PPP, but I have to run for a few hours now. Here it is to GLib completion, to be continued later today. Feel free to rip apart.
Spoiler :

T95 500 BC
Worker NEE of Washington: move 1E
Worker at Silver: start mine
Worker at Ivory: camp ivory
Washington: fire Sci and work spice forest
Ivory: work fish+FP+oasis+silk+PH
Research set to HBR

T96 475 BC
Worker NE of Washington: chop
Worker at Panama: move to Gems City
Worker NW of Washington: move to spice forest
Worker at Marble: irrigate 1N of city
Gems City: hire Sci
100% research for 1t

T97 450 BC
Worker 2N of Washington: chop
Worker at Gems: move to jungle SE of Pigs
Stone City: start library, work rice+crab+gold
Marble City: grows and works another grass
0% research

T98 425 BC
Worker NE of Washington: finish chop
Worker NNE of Gems: road
Ivory City: grows and works fish+FP+oasis+2silk+ivory
Silver City: whip WB

T99 400 BC
Worker at Ivory: road ivory
Worker 2N of Washington: finish chop
Worker NE of Washington: pre-road 1E of Washington
Settler: move to GH 2SW of Washington
Washington: hire 1 Sci
Gems City: hire Sci
Ivory City: 1pop whip LH !?
Silver City: start granary, working pig+lake; WB moves 1SE
100% research for 1t

T100 375 BC
Cancel action: Washington-1E; move to plains forest SSW of Washington
Worker at Pigs-SE: move to GH 2SW of Washington
Worker at Washington-2N: road sheep
Settler: move to Bridge City site
Silver WB: net fish; Silver works pig+fish
Marble City: work marble+grass farm
Ivory City: start barracks; work both silks
0% research to finish HBR

T101 350 BC
Worker at Silver: road
Worker at Ivory: move to GH 1W of city
Worker at Marble: road 1W
Worker at Washington-SSW: chop
Worker at Washington-2SW: mine
Worker at Washington sheep: road 1NW
Bridge City founded; start monument, work grass ?
Pigs City: start worker, WB go to clam
Marble City: 2pop whip library; work crab+farm
Start Construction at 0% research

T102 325 BC
Worker at Ivory-W: mine
Worker at Ivory-2S: mine Ivory-W
 

Attachments

  • OSS SG14 BC-0325 bbp.CivBeyondSwordSave
    211.9 KB · Views: 43
Can someone please post, say, 2 screenshots showing an overview of the Cities in our empire?

If you're going to do so, please ensure that the settings for showing details about the Cities are enabled in the Graphics settings of the Game Options (Ctrl + o). Also, it would be appreciated if Ctrl + r, Ctrl + t, and Ctrl + y were all enabled (Resources, Tiling of squares, and Yields).
 
Thanks for the screenshots! :goodjob: I wouldn't have been able to properly comment without them. As it is, I'm only going off of screenshots, so my comments could be totally off base in some cases.

Some random comments:
- I'm not sure where our Warrior Maginot line is so I'll just trust that it's being placed in an appropriate place (presumably 1W, 1SW, and 1S of Panama City?

- Wow, do we ever have a lot of excess Happiness. Riverside and Oasisside Farms will be nice to get at some point, since we can't rely on Civil Service to spread our Fresh Water supplies.

- It will be really nice to get another AI's Foreign Trade Routes, but I think that we said that our Work Boat was diverting in its exploration path to try to ascertain that very possibility.


Some random questions:
- Are we going to complete the Quarry on our Marble on the current turn or else sometime soon?

- As per our screenshots of our GGP plan:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10941111&postcount=1527
which of the two options (or neither of them) are we following? I haven't paid attention to the hiring/firing of Scientists in terms of the "correct timing," since I'm not sure what the correct timing is--so, that part of the plan has not been reviewed and I'll just put my confidence in you that you picked the appropriate times for hiring/firing.

- Why are we skipping between 0% and 100% Science? Have you calculated ideal values to avoid fractional losses based on the turns that we are running 100%? Is there some other reason?


Comments on the PPP:
T95 500 BC
Worker NEE of Washington: move 1E
I think that you mean "move 1W PFor Riv," but if when you see "1E" you "think" "1W," don't change it ;)


T95 500 BC
Ivory: work fish+FP+oasis+silk+PH
Your screenshot already seems to show us doing so, thus I guess whatever we were working previously wasn't as good. Since it does not look like we could cut the City growth time down from 3 turns to 2 turns, those squares look like the best ones to work anyway.


T98 425 BC
Silver City: whip WB
T99 400 BC
Silver City: start granary, working pig+lake; WB moves 1SE
T100 375 BC
Silver WB: net fish; Silver works pig+fish
The timing of whipping the Work Boat in Silver City looks to be perfect.


T95 500 BC
Washington: fire Sci and work spice forest
T99 400 BC
Worker 2N of Washington: finish chop <--the PFor Riv Spice
Washington: hire 1 Sci
Presumably it is the citizen that was working the PFor Riv Spice square that gets turned into a Scientist?


T96 475 BC
Worker at Panama: move to Gems City
T97 450 BC
Worker at Gems: move to jungle SE of Pigs
T98 425 BC
Worker NNE of Gems: road
T99 400 BC
Settler: move to GH 2SW of Washington
It seems like these Worker actions are being done to speed up the movement of the Settler that will be used to connect Bridge City. Presumably, you'll remember to wait on T99 400 BC for the Road to be completed before moving our Settler--I don't know if you need that part listed in the plan or if you'll just remember, but I like to make such reminders for myself.


T95 500 BC
Ivory: work fish+FP+oasis+silk+PH
T98 425 BC
Ivory City: grows and works fish+FP+oasis+2silk+ivory
T99 400 BC
Ivory City: 1pop whip LH !?
If we are whipping the Lighthouse, why not do so on T97 450 BC? That way, we get 2 extra Food from the Lighthouse, for having it for 2 additional turns, and whip before City growth instead of after City growth.

Perhaps you have a reason for delaying the whipping, such as wanting to overflow more Hammers? Unless you have a reason like that, then I think we'd probably be better whipping on T97 450 BC, but you could always run both options head-to-head in a test game for a few turns just to see which comes out ahead.


T96 475 BC
Worker at Marble: irrigate 1N of city
T101 350 BC
Worker at Marble: road 1W
Presumably, that's a Road 1NW of Marble City, on the GRiv and 1S of Washington's GCorn Farm. What's the reason for building this Road, if I may ask? Are we aiming to connect-up our Corn Resource soon, to give us another trading chip? Is it more so that we have a Road path for units to march on toward the south? I'm not exactly sure which City we're using to "bridge" attack from, but I guess that Marble City is going to be the most likely option until we get Bridge City's Cultural Borders expanded, so that could be the reason. If we don't have an immediate use for the Road, perhaps we should consider Farming another GRiv square at Marble City first?


T99 400 BC
Worker NE of Washington: pre-road 1E of Washington
T100 375 BC
Cancel action: Washington-1E; move to plains forest SSW of Washington
Typically, I like to cancel the action of the Worker on the same turn that he performs his action. I have found that the order of units coming up for movement can vary between a test game and a real game. As such, it is possible for you to get caught with your pants down if the order of units' movement changes such that said Worker will complete his action for the turn before you can reach him.

With our Workers being numbered (Ctrl + 1 numbers a Worker as "1," while Ctrl + 2 numbers a Worker as "2"), which I was doing in the real saved game, allows you to press the number "1" to access Worker 1 and the number "2" to access Worker 2. I'm not sure which Worker this one is, but let's pretend that it is Worker 2. Since it is Roading, you're either clicking on the Road icon with your mouse or are pressing the "r" key to build a Road. Immediately after starting on the Road, if this Worker were Worker 2, you could press the "2" key, which would reactivate the Worker. Then, you could press the "Backspace <--" key, which would cancel his in-progress action.

It's also easy to forget to cancel a Worker's action on the following turn, so doing it right away makes it easier for you to ensure that it gets done. There will be enough other things to be worrying about in the real game to stress over having missed cancelling a Worker's action.


T100 375 BC
Worker at Washington-2N: road sheep
Maybe you have a long-term plan for this Worker (which I don't want to mess up if you do), but I am pretty certain that our Sheep is already connected due to it being on a River. Perhaps, then it might be better to work on Farming the Grassland River square 1N of Washington? I guess it depends upon when we'd be able to switch away from a Mine to a GRiv Farm, but eventually we'll want to have this Farm for growth in Washington, so if the Worker is Roading simply because it has nothing better to do, then perhaps completing the Farm first would be better? I'm not sure, though.


T97 450 BC
Marble City: grows and works another grass
T100 375 BC
Marble City: work marble+grass farm
T101 350 BC
Marble City: 2pop whip library; work crab+farm
I'm a bit confused as to what's going on here. We start the set at Size 2 and grow to Size 3 on T97 450 BC. Do we grow again in there somewhere to Size 4? What does the T100 375 BC comment about only working 2 squares mean if we have 3 or possibly 4 citizens at this point?


T101 350 BC
Worker at Ivory: move to GH 1W of city
T102 325 BC
Worker at Ivory-W: mine
Worker at Ivory-2S: mine Ivory-W
Since we seem to have an excessive amount of extra Happiness and Healthiness, could it possibly be better to Farm the GRiv square 1S of Ivory first? That bit of extra Food could potentially help us grow into working our Mines that much faster.


T101 350 BC
Bridge City founded; start monument, work grass ?
Maybe work the PFor NE + N of there, for 3 base inputs instead of just 2 base inputs?

I'm not exactly sure when that PFor gets Chopped, though, or whether we're using it for the Monument in Bridge City or The Great Library. I think that we're using it for Bridge City (which makes sense, since Washington has Mines from which to get Hammers), but if for some reason we want the Chop to go to Washington, then perhaps "activating" the Forest in Bridge City would be a mistake... otherwise, if we want the Forest Chop to go to Bridge City, then you probably should actually put in a step that says to "activate" the PFor in Bridge City, since the game is unlikely to automatically do so when Bridge City gets founded.
 
- I'm not sure where our Warrior Maginot line is so I'll just trust that it's being placed in an appropriate place (presumably 1W, 1SW, and 1S of Panama City?
That's right.

- It will be really nice to get another AI's Foreign Trade Routes, but I think that we said that our Work Boat was diverting in its exploration path to try to ascertain that very possibility.
It spotted Gandhi's border this turn, so yes.


- Are we going to complete the Quarry on our Marble on the current turn or else sometime soon?
Current turn.

which of the two options (or neither of them) are we following? I haven't paid attention to the hiring/firing of Scientists in terms of the "correct timing," since I'm not sure what the correct timing is--so, that part of the plan has not been reviewed and I'll just put my confidence in you that you picked the appropriate times for hiring/firing.
Not sure it's one of the options... It goes Washington-Pigs-Gems-Washington asap, in any case.

- Why are we skipping between 0% and 100% Science? Have you calculated ideal values to avoid fractional losses based on the turns that we are running 100%? Is there some other reason?
No good reason. I can't really estimate our rate here, so I like to use 100% as it becomes available and maybe run lower slider on the last turn.

Presumably it is the citizen that was working the PFor Riv Spice square that gets turned into a Scientist?
Yes, the forest is chopped that turn and this gets us the GS on the same turn that Pigs would pop it.

It seems like these Worker actions are being done to speed up the movement of the Settler that will be used to connect Bridge City. Presumably, you'll remember to wait on T99 400 BC for the Road to be completed before moving our Settler--I don't know if you need that part listed in the plan or if you'll just remember, but I like to make such reminders for myself.
Yes, and no need for a reminder.

If we are whipping the Lighthouse, why not do so on T97 450 BC? That way, we get 2 extra Food from the Lighthouse, for having it for 2 additional turns, and whip before City growth instead of after City growth.
Will look at that.

Presumably, that's a Road 1NW of Marble City, on the GRiv and 1S of Washington's GCorn Farm. What's the reason for building this Road, if I may ask?
Not entirely sure. It's some notion of slowly connecting Marble and corn via road. Don't think we really need another farm in Marble.

Maybe you have a long-term plan for this Worker (which I don't want to mess up if you do), but I am pretty certain that our Sheep is already connected due to it being on a River. Perhaps, then it might be better to work on Farming the Grassland River square 1N of Washington? I guess it depends upon when we'd be able to switch away from a Mine to a GRiv Farm, but eventually we'll want to have this Farm for growth in Washington, so if the Worker is Roading simply because it has nothing better to do, then perhaps completing the Farm first would be better? I'm not sure, though.
The sheep is part of a pre-roaded highway from Ivory city. We need that road completed by the time we get units going. This worker does so and then mines for Ivory.


I'm a bit confused as to what's going on here. We start the set at Size 2 and grow to Size 3 on T97 450 BC. Do we grow again in there somewhere to Size 4? What does the T100 375 BC comment about only working 2 squares mean if we have 3 or possibly 4 citizens at this point?
Yes, it grows to 4. We obviously always work crab, so I forget to mention it sometimes.


Since we seem to have an excessive amount of extra Happiness and Healthiness, could it possibly be better to Farm the GRiv square 1S of Ivory first? That bit of extra Food could potentially help us grow into working our Mines that much faster.
Ivory grows far too fast for the mines past this point. That's why I'm thinking of whipping it, as well. It easily gets to optimal size before the improvements are all done without any farm.


Maybe work the PFor NE + N of there, for 3 base inputs instead of just 2 base inputs?

I'm not exactly sure when that PFor gets Chopped, though, or whether we're using it for the Monument in Bridge City or The Great Library. I think that we're using it for Bridge City (which makes sense, since Washington has Mines from which to get Hammers), but if for some reason we want the Chop to go to Washington, then perhaps "activating" the Forest in Bridge City would be a mistake... otherwise, if we want the Forest Chop to go to Bridge City, then you probably should actually put in a step that says to "activate" the PFor in Bridge City, since the game is unlikely to automatically do so when Bridge City gets founded.
It's chopped into Bridge, on T+1 after founding the city, IIRC. I could work it for 1t then.
 
No good reason. I can't really estimate our rate here, so I like to use 100% as it becomes available and maybe run lower slider on the last turn.
Well, it looks like you only spent a couple of turns at a 100% Science Rate.


As long as no AI learns Currency, there will be no issue with stockpiling Gold, so, theoretically, you could probably stick at a 0% Science Rate for most or all of the turnset, giving us a greater chance to get Horseback Riding in trade. Ivory City is only just starting on a Barracks, so we don't necessarily need to complete research on Horseback Riding within the current turnset.


Don't think we really need another farm in Marble.
We can always use more Farms! ;) Well, as long as the City is going to have 4 improved squares, then we can probably say that it has sufficient improvements, as then it can always whip whatever it needs (such as Galleys) just before growing to Size 5. Whether we put off getting a 4th improvement until later is up to you (I don't think that the plan calls for a fourth one but I admit that I am not certain).

Also, it is arguable that Bridge City could use a Worker, even if it's just to build a Grassland Cottage or something silly, to have it working something better than a barren Grassland square.


It's chopped into Bridge, on T+1 after founding the city, IIRC. I could work it for 1t then.
Sure, as long as you remember to switch away from working the PFor square on the turn that it gets Chopped. I imagine that the idea is to Mine the Grassland Hills square there and work it once it gets mined in a few turns?


Overall, I give the plan my approval. Nice work! :goodjob:
 
Well, it looks like you only spent a couple of turns at a 100% Science Rate.


As long as no AI learns Currency, there will be no issue with stockpiling Gold, so, theoretically, you could probably stick at a 0% Science Rate for most or all of the turnset, giving us a greater chance to get Horseback Riding in trade. Ivory City is only just starting on a Barracks, so we don't necessarily need to complete research on Horseback Riding within the current turnset.
Fair enough. I'll turn on research in time to unlock stable after barracks in Ivory.

We can always use more Farms! ;) Well, as long as the City is going to have 4 improved squares, then we can probably say that it has sufficient improvements, as then it can always whip whatever it needs (such as Galleys) just before growing to Size 5. Whether we put off getting a 4th improvement until later is up to you (I don't think that the plan calls for a fourth one but I admit that I am not certain).
I think the idea was to run a couple of Sci at pop 4 in Marble. It's probably the most useful thing we can do there 'till Astro. I think we can delay further farming there in favour of worker turns elsewhere. Roading that tile as I suggested is, admittedly, not a great use of those turns. I think Washington could definitely use a farm, so maybe pre-road on the way there so as not to lose a turn.

Also, it is arguable that Bridge City could use a Worker, even if it's just to build a Grassland Cottage or something silly, to have it working something better than a barren Grassland square.



Sure, as long as you remember to switch away from working the PFor square on the turn that it gets Chopped. I imagine that the idea is to Mine the Grassland Hills square there and work it once it gets mined in a few turns?
Yes, the GH gets mined at T+3 and Bridge works it until it gets access to seafood, I think.
 
Ahhh, okay, hiring Scientists in Marble City works... I had forgotten that bit.

I guess that we'll just have to get our Galleys from elsewhere... wherever that may be.


Yeah, sure, a Farm at Washington could be useful. That City does seem to have pretty slow growth and it will slow down even more once we have 2 Scientists hired there fulltime.
 
I don't know where everyone is. Should I just play to GLib, in order to keep this going? It seems reasonably straightforward and we kinda need to advance the game. Should give us a better idea of trade potential.

I'm also short on time these days, so I wouldn't mind passing it off after this or another short one.
 
I have no trouble with you going ahead with the turns that you have detailed in the PPP.

It probably wouldn't hurt to stop and think at that point as to what to do next... it might be straight-forward or we might have hit upon some snags. Either way, the PPP is long enough that you'll probably want a break from playing at that point anyway.

It will be up to you if you want to keep the test game going or if you'll let it die; depending upon what you do there, you could either throw together a rough or a detailed plan as to what happens from the end of the PPP up until the completion of the GLib.

What you came up with for your PPP was pretty solid but only you know how much time you had to spend testing in order to get there; if you think that we are at a point where we can let the test game stop being updated, then I will trust your judgment on the matter.
 
Ok, I'll just play tmr, incorporating your earlier comments as I see fit, unless someone else voices opposition.

I think the test game still has a lot of value at this stage. I'd keep it going 'till we get into warring on AIs.
 
Top Bottom