SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

A few things to add to post 8

1) negotiating peace between 2 AI civilizations is just a ceasefire
2) The AP resolution to open borders with all members won't come up if 2 of the members are at war with each other
3) stationary spy bonuses for espionage missions accumulate for a stationary spy no matter what (even if the spy makes it to the city location before there is a city there, or if the spy was sitting in your city that you gifted to AI)
4) there is a significantly greater chance for a spy to be caught in the borders of a civilization which whom you have closed borders
5) if you ever have 2 peace treaties with an AI, the 2nd peace treaty doesn't help--it will end the same turn as the first peace treaty will -- not exactly sure on this one.

 

[DanF5771]

Silver - yeah!!

Sorry, I couldn't help during the insane end game.
Great job everyone, hats off for bringing it home with very creative ideas and strong focused gameplay despite all the bad luck and confusion.
Thanks for letting me be part of a really great team.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Obviously where an AI settles depends on what part of the map he has explored which is fairly random, so I would not expect the AI to settle in the same place necessarily. even if the players of two games settled in exactly the same place at
the same time.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Silver - yeah!!

Sorry, I couldn't help during the insane end game.
Great job everyone, hats off for bringing it home with very creative ideas and strong focused gameplay despite all the bad luck and confusion.
Thanks for letting me be part of a really great team.

A warm welcome to you, DanF5771, for your invaluable insights into the BtS code and game mechanics. We all hope you can join us again for the next SGTOM!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

If you ever have 2 peace treaties with an AI that cresses over by at least 1 turn, the 2nd peace treaty doesn't help--it will end the same turn as the first peace treaty will -- not exactly sure on this one.

We confirmed here that signing a 2nd peace treaty is useless if the 1st is still in effect. Thankfully WastinTime pointed it out before it could bite us .
In the test game, the 1st peace treaty was signed and then a beg occured a few turns later. With two peace treaties in effect, declaring war was impossible. Once the first peace treaty was manually canceled, the 2nd was unable to be canceled but war could still be declared using the "Alt" button.



I would like to add on two more things that were learned.

1) Civs can take up to 10-15 turns to switch to their "favorite civic" once you give them the Tech that enables it .
2) If a civ goes into WHEOOHRN against you and sends a stack towards your borders, getting them involved in a Holy war will not cancel their war plans. Also, a successful gold beg will only delay their DoW on you by 10 turns.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I tested the unresolved issue of where Hatty's stack would teleport when we asked her to close borders with Toku. I elected to give away Gateway city.

Here is where Hatty's stack teleported when bribed her to close borders with Toku.

Spoiler :

I should not have listened to my own arguments and had faith in WastinTime!

Oh ya, I almost forgot about that. We came to quite the fork in the road trying to get a caravel in Hatty's lands while avoiding a wardec from her.

I see from the Screenshot above that the stack ended up where WastinTime thought it would. I don't normally indulge in "What Ifs", but I promised that I would on this occasion since we had strong feelings on which path to take.


I will replay a few turns from T121 in the real game and see what would have happened if we had teleported Hatty's main SoD home and tried to chop a trireme out in BridgeTown. Would it have gotten out and upgraded to a caravel in EastPort later in time for the city to be gifted to Ghenghigawa? Or would it have triggered war with Hatty and gotten smashed before it could complete its mission?

Let's find out!


***Update***

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Was there ever any doubt?

WastinTime was right again! I held my breath every turn waiting to see if the war chariots would chew up BridgeTown and our settler + missionaries, but it didn't happen.

 

[Manco Capac]

^


----------

Summary of what we learnt v1.3 up.

 

[WastinTime]

WastinTime was right again! I held my breath every turn waiting to see if the war chariots would chew up BridgeTown and our settler + missionaries, but it didn't happen.

I prefer to think of it as I was "lucky" again, not necessarily "right". We still got our boat out in a reasonable amount of time.
Thanks for the follow-up test.

 

[Manco Capac]

"What we learnt" v1.4 upped.

 

[mabraham]

V1.4 New facets of inner game mechanism and some tactics as well

[*] Test needed.
We have learnt teleportation over an ocean pre-Astro is possible thanks to map cylindrical wrapping.

I would not have said we learned this had anything to do with map wrapping. IIRC, being on the same landmass was necessary, but nothing else was.

[*]Cities can only be gifted if they are on the same land mass and within 9 tiles of their closest city and if they are not in financial crisis. When the receiver civilization has 3 cities or less, they agree for the gift everywhere.

Within 9.5 tiles is sufficient - it gets rounded before the code tests for less than or equal to 9.

[*] Watch out for the isolated civilization with the great wall! They will teleport a horde of barbarians over the ocean at you!

They'll teleport to the nearest available tile, probably requiring that it is on the same landmass. When this happened it in our game, it was not really a cross-ocean teleport...

[*] The open borders through shared war can be abused to teleport units. This is because canceling an open border results in "not right now, maybe in a few years" before they will sign a new one, which takes from 1 turn to many turns depending of RNG, but with shared war this too is bypassed. So close borders to teleport, then sign a new open borders treaty right away if there is a shared war with the civ.

You lose the accumulated OB diplo counter, however.

[*]Tribute in wars is out of worst enemy system; quite useful to give something without bad diplo kickback.

The value of bribes for ending wars between any two parties is not added to any of the AIs counters for trading to people. These counters are used in deciding the "you have traded with our worst enemy" diplo negmod. Not sure about bribes to start wars.

[*]Culture over mountains gives two tiles of sight.

More generally, line of sight is enhanced by altitude, so airship/aeroplane scouting missions are more effective on hills and mountains than land or water.

[*]Never trust the fist indicator for WHEEO(R)N!!! Sometimes, it doesn't even show up in modified games.
Another post.
[*]CTRL+CLICK on leader name permits to open the diplo table even though nothing can be put on the table. Still useful for WHEEON.

The fist is a Buffy UI enhancement. The game mechanic and report in the diplo screen is accurate, the Buffy attempt to display it conveniently is not.

[*]Share of 1 resource takes 50 turns before a plusmod to a maximum of +2. Giving two halves the time in two (while rounded up, which means (50/2) = 25.5 = 26 turns ).

It's just a counter - you need to have given a net of 50 resource-turns. So 10 turns of 1 resource and 4 turns of 10 resources is enough. If you stop trading the counter decays, but I'm not certain of the rate. It is OK to receive something in return for the trade. I'm very skeptical about the 26 assertion, unless you've tested it.

 

[Manco Capac]

I'm very skeptical about the 26 assertion, unless you've tested it.

Sorry, my random mind popped stupidities again .Really should stop those fancy reads here and there and focus on a single task. I had in mind 25/2 gives 13 in preference of 12, but somehow, out of an alternate dimension, I skewed 50/2 = 25.5.

I guess my mind is in its decadent slope now...approaching the critical age of 26...

The fist is a Buffy UI enhancement. The game mechanic and report in the diplo screen is accurate, the Buffy attempt to display it conveniently is not.

Yeah. I've read it due to the very existence of the teamed AI's.

-----
Corrections made.

 

[Manco Capac]

Version of "What we have learnt?" 1.5 upped. Few points though. The finds are thinning like mine depleting of its last resources.

BTW, I'm about (in term of a week I guess) to create a special game in Strategy & Tip subforum that will somehow work like a lesser SGOTM. Yes, it could be in the succession games subforum in Stories & Tales, but it is not really a special scenario like a no improvement games by R_rolo1.

The game will be played by Sid Meier of the Minor Nations (No traits) who has lost all knowledge (No starting techs). Thus, a pure "play the map" type of game.
The game is going to be random and not cooked. Except leaders are not gonna be necessarily friendly.
The difficulty will be set on deity difficulty and in that game the purpose is going to play the most efficiently by confronting theories and plans.

I'm not decided of the map type, but given the immense popularity and balance, pangaea could be chosen.

So, if some people are interested, please make your voice heard here in Kakumeika thread.
BTW, not need to be a "deity player" to join as everyone has its competence. It could be just for learning.

 

[soundjata]

Count me in please Tachy

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hope you are all doing well and eagerly waiting for SGOTM16 .


I'm also making this post to have somewhere to attach a game I need for making a guide, so no need to click on it as it has nothing to do with SGOTM.

 

[Manco Capac]

Count me in please Tachy

Thanks for the support, I postponed for an indetermined period that project. Shame your were the only interested in that project, but lacking true materiel to show is not helping the project promo for sure.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thanks for the support, I postponed for an indetermined period that project. Shame your were the only interested in that project, but lacking true materiel to show is not helping the project promo for sure.

If you plan to follow through on this adventure, I'd be happy to follow along.

There may some ways to standardize the start to be just plain average. For example, map finder could be used to do this with the selection of suitable rules. It can be used to find "plain Jane" (average) starts as well as HoF "stellar" starts. Or characterize any class of starts you would like to consider.

Given Deity level, I would suggest slightly better than aversge starts - such as those having one good food resourse like a flat pig or wet corn plot.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

To all 革命家 Team Members:

The SGOTM-16 thread has just opened (~three hours ago):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11778408#post11778408

Please signup ASAP.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

The Ducks are trying to woo Tachywaxon over to their team with tons of French words I think!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The Ducks are trying to woo Tachywaxon over to their team with tons of French words I think!

It's all harmless talk. Use google translate, if you can't read French.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

I'm in. Still haven't got a gold.