SGOTM 19 - Phoenix Rising

[Izuul]

I don't think keeping it will work either, but the current location may not be bad unless we are going to delay that capture so long that we can't do the resettle in time.

Madrid can already feed Augsburg resettle, ice clams, and ice fish. Not sure we can even get 3 out of Madrid. We need the corp there about the time it comes out of revolt, and i don't think that's gonna give us enough time to regrow that city 2 sizes along the way. Whips from 14 > 10 > 6, then need to regrow to S8, and it does not have a granary. That's like 66F. That isn't going to happen.

Fairly certain Madrid can only feed 2 without rush buying.

 

[Fippy]

Fairly certain Madrid can only feed 2 without rush buying.

I used only 2 in my plan, and i doubt Elite had more too.

 

[lymond]

New Val would need to be settled A bit sooner since we can't run artist

 

[Izuul]

Does 100% free speech bonus work with build culture?

 

[Fippy]

Can we please forget Valencia again, settling new here makes sense for both plans.
My whole plan does not work without re-settling, there are really better topics.

 

[lymond]

Does 100% free speech bonus work with build culture?

I doubt it

My, my last point wasn't anti new val. Just making sure we keep that in mind

 

[elitetroops]

Nice plan My, gave me some ideas to improve mine.

Exe 1 Exe 2 Exe 3 Exe 4 Exe 5
T1 Secret -Dye - - - -
T2 Secret -Gondar Dye -BBQ - - -
T3 Secret -Yeha Dye -Lali Gondar -Ankara BBQ -Thess -
T4 Ankara -Edirne Yeha -(Madrid) Thess -Nople Secret -(North Wheat) BBQ -Gyro
T5 Edirne -Istanbul (Yeha)-Madrid Secret -(Cow) (Secret)-North Wheat Nople -Oasis
T6 Madrid -New Augsburg Istanbul -(Damascus) Whip (Secret)-Cow North Wheat -(Arctic crab) Ankara -Santander
T7 Istanbul -(South Crab) (Istanbul)-Damascus North Wheat -(Arctic Fish) (North Wheat)-Arctic crab Madrid -(Arctic Clam)
T8 (Istanbul)-South Crab Cow -Horse (North Wheat)-Arctic Fish Oasis -Trump (Madrid)-Arctic Clam
T9 Trump -Sugar Horse -Sheep Madrid -New Valencia Damascus -New Mainz BBQ -Golden

I think this perhaps could be doable with only one rushbuy in Yeha. Difference is that I'm getting one more from Madrid and North Wheat than in last draft. I might be missing something, getting tired...

For culture we can also try to get sushi earlier to the new cities. Here New Val could be switched with New Aug, though New Aug will need culture also...

I think our two plans are pretty similar, except that I go through Yeha to Madrid and you go through New Val. Going to Dye or Gondar first makes little difference in the end.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think it's better to comment on which of the 2 plans work better?

Mylene has already commented on settlers/workboats and unprepared resources.

The exec spread debate has been done 4-5 times over.

We think we need about 2 rush buys now for either plan.

9T for exec spread seems about right. So 14 turns left including end turn.

I think we are agreed on gifting munsk to KK once barb city is gone. Then razing the gifted city.

We still have a lot of pillaging to do.

Are we sure we need all this research for 5 turns??? Can we add more gold anywhere??

 

[Gumbolt]

We have 2 very efficient plans now. Right I am definately off to bed now.

I still don't like Oasis - trump. You would need a rush buy for this??

 

[Fippy]

3 bbq and 3 Madrid will be tough without rush buy
But yep it's similar, need forge in either Dye or Gondar.

 

[elitetroops]

Oasis-Trump can easily be rid of. Switch around a few things at the end and make it Cow->Horse->Trump on T6, T7, T8.

 

[elitetroops]

3 bbq and 3 Madrid will be tough without rush buy
But yep it's similar, need forge in either Dye or Gondar.

I was thinking that BBQ has 6 turns of Sushi usage before the last whip, so it could perhaps be done. Didn't do any exact calculations yet. I'm more worried about the second whip there. Can we get it to size 12?

Eh, I reacted to some comment about Madrid getting 3, but missed Izu's comment. And that's probably true, no way to get 3 from there. It will barely have time to get out of revolt before corp spread.

Edit: At some point it will be worth it to hook up a couple of extra sushi resources if that can help us avoid a rush buy. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Fippy]

Hmm maybe not 100% sure on bbq.
Takes slightly more effort probably.

 

[elitetroops]

Could we get 3 from Madrid if we max hammers when whipping first 2, then save overflow for 3rd and also chop that forest 3N2W?

I'm too tired right now to figure out how exactly overflow works with Kremlin and penalty for dry whipping... I'm sure Izu knows!

Got to head to bed now. Good Night all!

 

[Fippy]

Sleep well

 

[Izuul]

Exec costs 150H with penalty. Each Kremlin pop (without forge) gives 45H. A no-forge exec whip requires 4 pop and actually gives 180H so there would be 30 OF there. I guess the 2nd would give another 30 OF leaving us 40H shy. 1 forest chop + 10+ base hammers would get us the rest of the way. That's assuming all of that OF builds up properly. Should be able to test this. Hammers worked on turns that we whip should actually have no impact whatsoever. We would need max hammers on the turn that we roll all of the whip OF into an exec being built with hammers.

This might also work with N Wheat. Whip the first exec and pool that OF with what we already have stored there.

Edit: This worked in test game. 30H OF per 4-pop exec whip without forge and i was able to accrue 60H with no consecutive whips then finish a 3rd exec with OF + chop + base hammers. Cities with a forge get 13 OF for each 3-pop whip (i think it may actually be 12.5, b/c it says 112/100 then gives 13 OF). I'm not sure how the forge + kremlin hammers are being calculated. It's not working like i thought it would, but game is giving 13 OF so i guess that's all that matters.

I see now that Madrid chop is definitely less than 30H though so we will need more than 10 base production. It will be S6 or S7 when we need to build the last exec. We should be able to get 15-16 base hammers there at that size. That would leave us needing 24-25H from chops.

Edit 2: forests 3NE and 3N2W of Madrid are worth 13H each, and the one 3S is worth 16H provided it goes to Madrid and not Nueva Valencia. I think that makes 3 from Madrid doable but we would have to chop at least 2 forests.

 

[elitetroops]

With one spare slot in My's plan we can eliminate one rushbuy. Send from Secret to North Wheat on T3 (double move) and Secret-Yeha on T9. That would leave only one rushbuy, which can't be avoided no matter what we do.

With 3 from N.Wheat I think my plan could be done with only one rushbuy as well, if overflow+chopping can get 3 from Madrid, but My's plan seems easier to execute.

Edit: Did we have a spare GG? If that could give exp to our galley for navigation, we could do Gondar-Madrid in 2 moves (instead of Gon-new Val) and with 3 exes from Madrid avoid any rushbuying at all.

Edit 2: If we don't have GG, another galley (much cheaper to buy with hammers invested) would also allow Gondar-Madrid in 2 turns using galley chain.

 

[Fippy]

Seems you do not need special galleys even Elite, Gondar exec could be loaded in, moved and unloaded into New Valencia.
Next turn he just walks into Madrid

2 galleys might be better anyways thou, also if Kublai gets another defender into Valencia.
Could be whipped in Santander after Civic change.

 

[elitetroops]

Haha, it's not always easy to see the obvious... Yes, can get to Madrid in one turn with one regular galley.

I also had a major brainfart yesterday when analyzing the code:

iSpreadProb += (((GC.getNumCorporationInfos() - pCity->getCorporationCount()) * (100 - iSpreadProb)) / GC.getNumCorporationInfos());

iSpreadProb = 40 for own cities, 20 for AI cities. (Value <iCorporationSpread>40</iCorporationSpread> in Civ4UnitInfos.xml, is cut in half for foreign cities)
GC.getNumCorporationInfos = Amount of corporations in existence
pCity->getCorporationCount = corps present in city

...

... even though the probablility for foreign cities should be 80, I can't seem to fail that either.

No, it should not be 80. Regardless of the value of iSpreadProb, the final probability will always be 100 with no other corps present. The different value for iSpreadProb only matters when there is another corp in the city. Then it is more likely to fail when spreading to foreign cities than own cities.

In other words, the code confirms all our observations. Executive cannot fail to spread corp when there is no earlier corp in the city.

 

[Fippy]

I have a maybe interesting challenge for us here..

Spoiler :