SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

[Yamps]

@Kaitzilla

I support the 2 warrior wall idea.
With our current resources, it seems our best strategy to deal with a lone archer beelining Sparta.
The fortified hill warrior should have even odds to kill an archer and the forest warrior should be able to finish off the archer if it wins.

This could be problematic. Let's say the archer stays on 2 health after the first fight, standing on a hill. That would be +50% defense and our forest warrior couldn't handle that. We should retreat like Duckweed suggested, but the trouble could start soon when the number of AI cities increases.

It is also far out enough that if things go horribly wrong, Sparta still has time to mount a defense after Oracle.

All barb troubles will be coming from the southwest until barb galleys start appearing everywhere to blow up our very heavy seafood investments.

The best plan to handle barb galleys, if possible, would be to use spawn busting along the coast. If they spawn ~8 tiles from our sea food, they won't see it on their attack radar.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Why even put a 2nd warrior out there if we are just going to retreat it?
I suppose it makes sense if it doesn't have 25% fortify bonus yet.

Put both warriors on the empty hill to Sparta then?


With any luck there isn't much land for barb cities and the AI empires will start sending down armies to smash that lone barb city, but it won't happen soon.
Maybe barbs will target Willem to harass instead of us also.

 

[Doshin]

There's also a possible flaw in your population reasoning. While it could be true that their higher population score also means more compact city placement, they could also have more food resources in general and hence both larger and bigger empires on average than our nearby AI.

If they had larger and bigger empires, we would not have the highest crop yield on T55.

I've lost track on when does our fish city settler arrive to the spot compared to warrior from Corinth. If there is a significant difference, then by all means we should secure that key spot with our warrior.

Warrior lands on T58, Settler lands on T63.

Without a fogbusting Warrior, the Settler will land on T64, because we won't be able to see the NE corner of the island until then.

A barb Warrior spawn would delay City #5 by ~7 turns (need to build and transport 2 Warriors before returning with our own Settler). If a barb Archer spawns, the time loss for City #6 is ~12 turns and we will need 3-4 Warriors (expect 2 to die, 3 if we are unlucky). A barb city makes settling the island in good time impossible.

Btw, what's our galley doing after settler movement? We could re-board the warrior when our settler arrives and transfer him further for northeastern spawn busting duties.

This is a bit beyond my set, but I would hope to move the Warrior to the mainland, as you say. We would need to check that we have sufficient to build another Warrior in Fish City before unhappiness strikes.

Why even put a 2nd warrior out there if we are just going to retreat it?
I suppose it makes sense if it doesn't have 25% fortify bonus yet.

Put both warriors on the empty hill to Sparta then?

The Archer will avoid the tiles adjacent to our borders until the average # of cities > 3.

After that limit is passed, it will target a city. If we fortify units 4W and 3W1S of Sparta, the Archer will believe that access to the city is impossible (no direct path possible) and either remain in its current sphere of movement, or target Willem.

We would only need to retreat if the Archer is drawn next to one of our Warriors by an external cause: (1) it attacks an AI unit, which is next to our units, and then can attack us; (2) it is targeting Willem's city and moves through the tile 5W of Sparta (in which case, the Archer 4W of Sparta would retreat 1NE and maintain the wall).

This is easier to see than describe. I post pics and a save in this post.

(Apologies if you know this already.)

 

[Kaitzilla]

The Archer will avoid the tiles adjacent to our borders until the average # of cities > 3.

After that limit is passed, it will target a city. If we fortify units 4W and 3W1S of Sparta, the Archer will believe that access to the city is impossible (no direct path possible) and either remain in its current sphere of movement, or target Willem.

We would only need to retreat if the Archer is drawn next to one of our Warriors by an external cause: (1) it attacks an AI unit, which is next to our units, and then can attack us; (2) it is targeting Willem's city and moves through the tile 5W of Sparta (in which case, the Archer 4W of Sparta would retreat 1NE and maintain the wall).

This is easier to see than describe. I post pics and a save in this post.

(Apologies if you know this already.)

Actually, I didn't know that barbs avoided adjacent tiles to culture until #cities >3.
Thanks!


I'm not sure about the bolded part since there is that 3rd path up past Willem's borders that the barbs could evaluate, but I'm not familiar enough with the code to know.
Does the AI consider all possible paths direct? hehe

The 4 warrior wall is an awesome idea.
If that is the goal we are shooting for, then retreating to preserve warrior numbers sounds great.
I love it. We should do it.

4W and 3S1W of Sparta sounds like fine spots to put warriors and retreating to preserve the ultimate 4 warrior wall plan sounds perfect.

 

[Doshin]

Ignoring hammers and commerce, which balance each other out (Plains Hill = 2HPT, Coast = 2CPT), we can focus on food:

Spoiler :

T0: 0F 0H
T1: 0F 4H
T2: 0F 8H
T3: 0F 12H (PH switches to Coast)
T4: 1F 14H
T5: 2F 16H (borders expand)
T6: 7F 18H
T7: 12F 20H
T8: 17F 22H
T9: 22/22F (size 2, work 2x Fish; Granary @ 24/60H)
T10: 8/24F 26H
T11: 16/24F 28H
T12: 24/24F (size 3; 1-pop whip Granary @ 30/60H)
T13: 8/24F (size 2)
T14: 16/24F
T15: 24/24F = 12/26F (size 3, work 2x Fish 1x Coast; LH @ 6/60H)
T16: 19/26F
T17: 26/26F = 13/28F (size 4, 2-pop whip LH @ 10/60H)
T18: 21/24F (size 2, Granary & LH complete)
T19: 31/24F = 19/26F (size 3)
T20: 29/26F = 14/28F (size 4)​

Growing to size 3 and then whipping a Granary should be worth +6F > whipping a Granary at size 2.

Finding a way to build 2 WBs (3WBs with a northern explorer) + Settler in good time, so that we do not delay City #6, will be the hard part.

This actually isn't too difficult. We can build a 2nd WB in Athens or Corinth, e.g.:

Spoiler :

How quickly do we want City #6, and where should we settle?

With a little effort, a T69 Settler is possible:

Spoiler :

Corinth builds: Warrior (T60) ---> Workboat (T66) ---> Settler (T69) ---> (Workboat?)

The empire in this version:

Spoiler :

Athens has a Granary, and Sparta just 1-pop whipped its Granary. Fish Island will have 2 improved Fish @ size 2.

edit: the fogbuster and Galley positions aren't accurate.

For Thebes, I like whipping the Worker with about ~45H invested, so that we can chop a Granary at size 2 (61/60H, 12/24F). We could then chop the Fur into a LH for a 1-pop whip @ size 3, (+2FPT several turns earlier, 1-pop saved, 1HPT lost for the rest of the gain) or save the Forest and 2-pop whip @ size 4. Unless the hidden objectives necessitate a Bureaucracy capital, I'd prefer to chop the Forest.

 

[Duckweed]

The timing of 6th city would be when there are 2 workers available to help developing the city. The corn site is much better than the horse site considering the safety and production.

 

[Duckweed]

4W and 3S1W of Sparta sounds like fine spots to put warriors and retreating to preserve the ultimate 4 warrior wall plan sounds perfect.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13677272&postcount=351

When the passage from SW is sealed, William 2nd city or possible other AI's cities from west would be a closer target, no matter where are the barbarians come from.

 

[Doshin]

The timing of 6th city would be when there are 2 workers available to help developing the city. The corn site is much better than the horse site considering the safety and production.

Can you check the attached save?

I think it is fine, if we plan to have the island Worker finish the capital's farms in ~10 turns.

 

[Duckweed]

Yes, look good. Moreover, the 6th city only cost -1C thanks to 2 island trade route income, even without any worker (quickly lay down a city with WB, might not be accurate), it's a big gain.

 

[Yamps]

If they had larger and bigger empires, we would not have the highest crop yield on T55.

This is a good point, but could they not still have more food than our local AI if not more than us? In any case, there doesn't seem to be that much we could do before the Oracle. Let's hope I worry too much and the situation stays the same for the next couple of turns.

 

[Doshin]

This is a good point, but could they not still have more food than our local AI if not more than us? In any case, there doesn't seem to be that much we could do before the Oracle. Let's hope I worry too much and the situation stays the same for the next couple of turns.

They could, but the AI average on T55 is 28F, which is quite a lot lower than our 37F yield. Moreover, on T55 we had zero LHs, and had just whipped 2-pop away in Sparta, so we were not at our biggest and best.

As you say, we can't control this in any case, so let's continue to hope for safety.

----

With a little effort, a T69 Settler is possible:

Spoiler :

Corinth builds: Warrior (T60) ---> Workboat (T66) ---> Settler (T69) ---> (Workboat?)

This will have to be T70 after all, as Worker B has moved in the real game (T56).

As minor compensation, we gain +7H in Corinth, an extra shared farm (~8 turns earlier) and a free Worker turn.

Updated PPP:

Spoiler :

T56

21G banked, -13GPT

Research: Priesthood ---> The Wheel.

Corinth: Warrior completes. Build Warrior.
---> change Grassland to Wheat

Corinth Warrior: move 1E
Galley: move 2NE

Worker B: move 1NW of Athens. Farm (2/5) and cancel.
Worker A: move 2N1E (= 1NW or Gems)

Sparta: build The Oracle. Work Forest > Lake

Athens: work Grassland Hill > Grass Forest

EOT: 21G -13GPT +61BPT


T57

8G banked -14GPT

Athens: WB completes. Build Settler.
----> change Fur to Wheat.

WB: move 2SE

Worker A: chop (1/3)

Galley: move 1N
Corinth Warrior: load onto Galley
Galley: move 1E

Worker B: move 1N. Farm (4/5) and cancel.

Oracle City: work Forest
Gems City: work Forest Hill
Island City: work Clams and Fur. Build Worker.

Research @ 0%

EOT: 8G banked +34GPT +7BPT


T58

42G banked +34GPT

Worker B: move 2N1W

Galley: move 1E, 1NE
----> if safe, unload Warrior

WB: created Fishing Nets on Crab

Athens: change Wheat ---> Clams
Sparta: still Forest
Corinth: change Forest ---> Wheat

Research @0%

EOT: 42G +37GPT +7BPT


T59

79G banked, +34GPT

Research: The Wheel ----> Pottery

Bulb Mathematics

Worker A. Chop (3/3)
Worker B. Chop (1/3)

Galley: can explore for ~2 tiles (check in game)

Research @0%

Athens: work Grass Forest x2, Grass Hill, Deer, Crab
Thebes: work Crab, Fur


T60

116G banked, +36GPT

Gems City: Warrior completes. Build WB.
Warrior goes westward? TBD

Worker A: move 2S1E.

Galley: must end turn 4 tiles away from Athens.

Sparta: whip Library. Change Crab to Gems.

Athens: work Grass Forest x2, Grass Hill, Deer, Fur
Thebes: work Crab x2


Research @ 60%

EOT: 116G +4GPT +32BPT


T61

Worker B: chop (3/3)
Worker A: move 1S. Road (1/2) and cancel.

Galley: must end turn 2 tiles away from Athens.

Athens: whip Settler. Change Grass Forest to GH.

Research @ 100%

EOT: 120G -15GPT +56BPT


T62

Pottery ---> CoLs (@ 0%)

Athens: Settler completes. Build Granary.
Sparta: The Oracle completes. Take Currency. Build Granary.

Gift 50G to Willem and contact BSPollux. Pause until we hear back.

Worker A: move 2S1E

Galley: move adjacent to Athens
---> Settler load onto Galley

Worker B: mine (1/4)

Athens: Deer, GH, Crab
Sparta: resources x3
Corinth: Wheat + Forest + Gems x2
Thebes: Crab + Fur

EOT: 55G +40GPT +0BPT

Pic on T63:

Spoiler :

I'll play tomorrow. Ideally, I will stop on T62, contact BSPollux, wait for the first hint, and then finish the turn. On T63 we can purchase a second hint.

Who is taking over from me? I can help with Granary micro for Athens, Corinth, Crab/Fur Island, and Fish Island, so you needn't test as much.

If all remains equal, should we inquire about Elizabeth, Isabella, or Catherine first?

I would prefer to first inquire about a known AI (i.e. Elizabeth) and then ask about one of the two unknowns.

 

[BSPollux]

I'll play tomorrow. Ideally, I will stop on T62, contact BSPollux, wait for the first hint, and then finish the turn. On T63 we can purchase a second hint.

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding: You are allowed to buy multiple hints each turn.
Edit: Btw this is the time I get up in the morning. Afterwards I leave for ~9h.

 

[Doshin]

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding: You are allowed to buy multiple hints each turn.
Edit: Btw this is the time I get up in the morning. Afterwards I leave for ~9h.

Thanks.

If the real game mirrors the tests, we'll have 105G on T62, i.e. 20G short of a second hint, unless you feel like lowering the fees.

 

[Duckweed]

My guess of the tasks:

Izzy: spread her state religion or favorite religion (Christian), the latter is harder.
Cathy: Eliminate Ottoman Empire
Liz: No idea, dealing with Shaka would be too easy.

I'd like to buy tasks in the order of Liz->Cathy->Izzy. Shall we have a guess game 1st?

 

[Yamps]

Easy or not, I'm pretty sure Shaka will have to pay the price for being a nasty villian that he is. Fighting in some Zulu-British wars wouldn't be that surprising, even though it would be for a much cuter queen instead of queen Victoria.

 

[shakabrade]

Doshin,

I agree Liz should be the first to ask hint for.



Guess game:

Liz: maybe something with Calendar resources. Get all of them.

Cathy: kill someone who insulted her, maybe Kill Hatty (kossin), since she rivals her beauty.

Izzy: religion stuff.

 

[Doshin]

Fish fish fish:

Spoiler :

Our Woodsman III Warrior defeated a barb Warrior @99% odds, taking no damage. The barb Archer killed Shaka's Scout:

Spoiler :

If we're guessing objectives, I want to say one AI will want a particular great person as a gift, e.g. Izzy wants a Great Prophet, or Catherine a Great Artist.

 

[Doshin]

T60, and the exploration so far:

Spoiler :

I stopped, because... in the bottom right hand corner... guess who's plotting

Diplo on T59:

Spoiler :

Diplo on T60:

Spoiler :

There's nothing to suggest that he has close border tensions with Elizabeth or Willem.

I'm not sure if we will be the likely target, so I'm pausing for feedback. We can research Archery if necessary.

 

[Yamps]

It's possible that he can't reach us. He still doesn't have OB with Willhem, right? We should send some warrior exploring to check it out.

When do we expect some AI to reach Alphabet? That could give us IW, but it might be too late. Of course, we can't be certain if he's really after us but we can't exclude it either.

Another point to consider is that while Archery isn't exactly the most wanted tech in the world, it would also enable us to easily settle horse city. We could then start some chariot warfare against Willhem and maybe some HA wars too, depending on what are our tasks about.

 

[Duckweed]

Looks like that your luck have not become better.

Who is Shaka aiming for depends on the distance factor, which we don't know and we won't know before we could spare the scout.

Edit: Considering the resource factor, unless William and Liz are also resourceless. The distance and bordering factors are hard to exceed the resource factor (40 for each strategic resource) * 2 (Altitude factor). There's very good chance that we are the target.

The good thing is that we still have ~20 turns to prepare, these turns come from 10 turns of gracious period and possible distance of the traveling of Shaka's SOD. His SOD might compose of 4~5 units. All we need is 4~5 archers to defend. I think we have enough time to prepare after we pay for the 3 tasks. No need to switch to Archery now.