SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

Even we need to research Plastics, #1 is probably still faster than #2 as bpt in the final stage should be close to 5000, Plastics takes 2~3 turns.

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

2 turns for Plastics: Cathy #1 is easier. 3 turns for Plastics: Cathy #2 is faster, but logistically harder.

For the quickest #2, we'd need to relocate Cathy's capital to the area north of Sparta and dry-whip 12 Tanks in one turn. We could also chain 12 Tanks to a coastal capital anywhere on the map... but the number of Galleons/Transports needed would be huge. It'd be expensive and very easy to mess up, for anyone but kossin.

BSPollux · Apr 4, 2015

Updating clues now

Done

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

Thanks, BSPollux.

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

GA Plan: First Draft

Kaitzilla said:
A double bulb would get us 3774/3900 based off our Turn 134 129 population.
We would need a population of 150 to completely double bulb Sci. Method.

Without seeing this, I estimated +21 pop growth as possible, with a T137 LH whip in Eretria and Halicarnassos factored in. This did not include population gained from city captures.

For research, we have ~16 tiles that will not be boosted by GA :commerce:

, but many coastal tiles will be changed to specialists. Astronomy: 0/3250 (5 turns) = 4 / 3 turns? Liberalism: 895/2275 (2 turns) = 1 turn?

T136: Liberalism
T137: Printing Press (GA1 and CIVIC SWITCH)
T138: Astronomy (GA2)
T139: Astronomy (GA3)
T140: Astronomy (GA4)
T141: Liberalism (double bulb Sci Method) (GA5)
T142: Communism taken (GA6 and CIVIC SWITCH)
T143: (GA7)
T144: (GA8)

?

(1) Argos: GS#1 (112GPP ---> 400)

Spoiler :

(2) Amsterdam: GS#2 (102GPP ---> 500)

Spoiler :

(3) Whales City: GS#3 (6GPP ---> 600)

Spoiler :

(4) Sparta: GPerson #4 (296GPP ----> 700)

Spoiler :

(5) Athens: GMerchant (long-term) (40GPP ----> 800?)

Spoiler :

Basic ideas:

Argos + Amsterdam = Scientific Method
Whales City = GScientist to bulb Physics, and the free GScientist lets us bulb Electricity

Sparta = 599/600 on the turn Whales city gets the 600GPP specialist. Sparta then generates the next GPerson for a GA. Should we save this as our third specialist for GA#4? We'd need to use the Physics GScientist + Communism GSpy to start GA#2. The big downside is that we'd be unable to bulb Electricity.

Athens = not pushed too hard. Can be pushed harder in GA#2 or GA#3 or GA#4, when at size 18 and in Representation.

----

With 3 more specialists coming from Argos/Amsterdam/Whales, the third specialist would cost 1200 .

We have 36 more GA turns planned, but GPPl bulbs are more useful now than in 20 turns, especially with certain GScientist bulbs getting cut off by different techs.

The numbers would change if we stay in either Caste System or Pacifism when State Property becomes available.

----

Let me know what you think. It's a first draft.

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

I only guessed one task right, spaceship as the last choice. :lol:

Are we done with buying hints? I'm going to advance to T137 to see Mansa's next tech choice. Whether he goes for Astronomy is the determinative factor for next session.

One of the major question now is which tech shall we beeline next after Communism?

AL? which is the biggest boost to production. However, there's some small techs that Mansa could research for us.

Or Steel? great for war.

Or Physics, airships are good helper for war.

Or Electricity, boost the economy a bit, I'm pretty sure that I don't want it before others.

Regarding GP plan

I think it's a bit early to produce Sparta's GP due to it's free GPP from Oracle and possible GPP from Taj.

Is it possible that Argos produces GS#3 before Whale so that Whale could produce the 4th soon after GA to double bulb Physics?

If not, we could consider producing GMs after 2 GSs since GMs are more flexible for other lines except Electricity line. Only Physics is worth to beeline.

Kaitzilla · Apr 4, 2015

Very nice GP farm work Doshin
The tech timeline looks good.
Hopefully we can reach 150 pop by T141.
We are 137 pop on T136 currently.

Sparta is a little off with the jump from 300 to 420.
I think it should be 320.

I'd be happy to push for Great People everywhere.
5 cities!
Does it really matter if the Athens growth is slowed down for 8 turns?
Extra Great Merchant would be real useful.

Or that Sparta spits out a particular great person?
Great Prophet or Great Engineer only really needed for the 4 great people golden age because we can make GS,GM, and GA thanks to caste.
I don't think we'll have time to make use of a 4 people golden age. 4 Great Merchants would be better I think.
If we are building Taj in Sparta, I suppose we can wait to produce its great person.
**Edit**
Oh ya, we want to be in slavery as much as possible. :hmm:

We will get Great Merchant from Economics, Great Spy from Communism, and Great Scientist from Physics.

I'm happy for us to be done buying hints.

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

I think we're done with buying hints. Green light from me.

Apart from the war, some final EOT things...

EOT:

Change research to Liberalism.
Run an Engineer in Athens.
Gift Copper to someone.
Renegotiate deals with Mao (and others, if you see anything).
Do you want to get Theology to gift to Louis? He is in Free Religion now, but could build the Hagia Sophia. This would mean advancing Catherine.

T137:

Whip Lighthouses in Halicarnassos and Eretria before Golden Age.
Any other whips: confirm that this will not hurt the pop target.
If Mansa goes to Astronomy, that's a new stopping point.

Kaitzilla said:
Very nice GP farm work !

Sparta is a little off with the jump from 300 to 420.
I think it should be 320.

Thanks. Ah. 100GPP missing... boo. I'll edit everything later.

We can definitely change GP management in Sparta and Athens.

There's no reason to push hard on Athens if it will only produce 1 Great Person. If it produces 2, we can run more Great Merchants earlier.

After the 10th GPerson, GP costs markedly increase, and tiles in the capital benefit from Bureaucracy. Domestic cities at size 18 also increase trade route yield, so all our islands would gain +1CPT for ~40 turns, if we grow Athens. I suspect we should only get one GMerchant from Athens, unless we want the :gold:

sooner (which is a good reason).

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

Duckweed said:
Is it possible that Argos produces GS#3 before Whale so that Whale could produce the 4th soon after GA to double bulb Physics?

Size 12, with 3 Fish, means 9 Specialists and a –4FPT deficit.

The city has a little more than 100GPP now.

(9*3) * 4 (GA/Phil/Pacifism) = 108GPP per turn

3 turns are needed to hit 400GP / GS#1.
6 turns are needed to hit 600GP / GS#3.

It's too slow, even if we stay in Caste/Pacifism for the entirety of the GA (and we want to switch into SP before this ends).

A GScientist can bulb Chemistry after Physics. Chemistry offers +1HPT for any Workshops. Unfortunately we'd need to research Gunpowder before.

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

Doshin said:
I think we're done with buying hints. Green light from me.

Apart from the war, some final EOT things...

EOT:

Change research to Liberalism.

Any reason? The OF from PP will either go to Liberalism or Astronomy, switch to Liberalism only loses the PP bonus.

Run an Engineer in Athens.

As Kaitzilla suggested, run a citizen to avoid pollution. If we let Athens produce a GP in late stage, GE would be a useless GP type. In fact, I prefer not running any specialist since 2F3C = 4H4C in capital and it might lead to 1 turn earlier to a size 18, which is no less.

Gift Copper to someone.

Renegotiate deals with Mao (and others, if you see anything).

Do you want to get Theology to gift to Louis? He is in Free Religion now, but could build the Hagia Sophia. This would mean advancing Catherine.

Let's see what's Louis' next tech, then decide since Louis has not completed a tech for some turns after Compass.

T137:

Whip Lighthouses in Halicarnassos and Eretria before Golden Age.

Any other whips: confirm that this will not hurt the pop target.

If Mansa goes to Astronomy, that's a new stopping point.

Just a remind, one island city (Rhodes) can't whip LH in time if we launch the GA on T137.

Kaitzilla · Apr 4, 2015

Liberalism already has 895/2275 :science:

in it.
We can't put the overflow from Printing Press into it without lowering the slider from 100% to prevent completing Liberalism.
For flexibility, I'm happy with us switching to Liberalism for 1 turn on T136.

If Mansa did start on Astronomy T137, and we overflowed Printing Press this turn, all the research would land on mmm
We'd probably stop teching to wait for Mansa to finish Astro? :lol:

In that case, lowering slider would be ok because we'd only be putting another 900 :science:

plus a little more into Liberalism.

**Edit**
And we might get a few bonus gold from Printing Press ya.

Athens is 2 :hammers:

short to complete university this turn.
A citizen would contribute 1 :hammers:

which would get the +100% for University and would complete it.
If we don't mind the pollution, engineer gives more hammers, especially with 50% bureau bonus.

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

If Mansa goes for Astronomy next, we'll turn off slider and let OF to Liberalism, otherwise we put the OF to Astronomy. In either case, completing PP immediately is better.

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

Duckweed said:
Any reason? The OF from PP will either go to Liberalism or Astronomy, switch to Liberalism only loses the PP bonus.

If Mansa picks Astronomy, where would you place the OF? And if Liberalism, by how much would we need to reduce the slider?

I haven't calculated, but Lib. only needs 2 turns now to complete outside of a GA.

Duckweed said:
As Kaitzilla suggested, run a citizen to avoid pollution. If we let Athens produce a GP in late stage, GE would be a useless GP type. In fact, I prefer not running any specialist since 2F3C = 4H4C in capital and it might lead to 1 turn earlier to a size 18, which is no less.

Is +1H from the Citizen enough?

If you'd prefer to avoid the pollution and grow, that's fine with me too.

Duckweed said:
Just a remind, one island city can't whip LH in time if we launch the GA on T137.

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

The mace won against sword!

But, I made a silly mistake

-- all the military units is on board, which leaves Amsterdam 2 angry citizen, will it affect the GP plan, shall I switch the horse tile to water tile or just leave it to be.

Edit: Look at the GP in Ams, it only runs 1 turn of 9 Scientist, should be fine.

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

I'm guessing you know that you can load/unload units multiple times, if any units can wait a turn before going to England.

Anyway, no worries. Just as long as Amsterdam can still grow this turn, it's fine.

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

Doshin said:
I'm guessing you know that you can load/unload units multiple times, if any units can wait a turn before going to England.

Anyway, no worries. Just as long as Amsterdam can still grow this turn, it's fine.

The galleys did not have enough movement to go into city, and you can only load/unload units multiple times in city or fort.

Anyway, the movement turn out to be not bad, Liz gathers a sizable SOD in York we we do need them.

Done playing. Capture Rotterdam without loss, LH kept.

However,

Spoiler :

Log

Spoiler :

Empire Overview

Spoiler :

Battle Field

Spoiler :

Tech screen, Louis completed Theology and started wonders immediately.

Spoiler :

Next player, please!

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

I am so confused by your first spoiler.

But we got Mansa to research Astronomy for us. :thumbsup:

Now what do we research. :crazyeye:

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

We need to research something to trade Astronomy, Gunpowder.

In this case, I think we might have enough cash to research Communism manually and save liberalism for something bigger. Hmm, not easy since it's hard to complete Communism before GA is end.

Might be doable if we have enough OF from Gunpowder and Lib so that we can finish Communism in 3 turns. Lib->Physics gives 2000 more beakers than Communism. The question is that do we have enough cash to support? I guess so if we build wealth in some cities.

Doshin · Apr 4, 2015

We have to delay the GA by a turn or two, if Mansa needs 8 turns to research Astronomy.

Spoiler :

Mansa's tech rate +1 lets us take something with Liberalism. Electricity might be a better target now, while we manually research Communism. We have 1 spare GScientist from Whale City. The Physics GScientist could bulb Chemistry afterwards.

Hmmmmm.

Duckweed · Apr 4, 2015

Lib->Electricity is too troublesome, we can't finish 2/3 of Physics plus Communism in 3 turns before the 1st GA ends, unless we want to launch 2nd GA or take the anarchy hit.

5 turns before Mansa completes Astronomy (produce 2 GSs) is the turn to launch GA so that's T140.

We probably could whip univs in some GP farms.

SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

jolly yellow giant

jolly yellow giant

Deity

Lord Croissant

jolly yellow giant

jolly yellow giant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

jolly yellow giant

Deity

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