Maybe we have to use Ottoman or even Romans. Rather not use Romans as they have 2 cities.If we have to take a 3rd vassel this may mean more switching of cities to get 40+ combat wins. I think the numbers were pretty close on the great people figures.
[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Phoenix Rising
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Fippy
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I also have some good news..
re-worked Silky for 2 Spies less, but National Epic & CH gained.
Also allows letting Holy Farm failgold flow into NE, which we get turn 12 / 13
Wonders 16 / 23 now without touching other cities yet.
Taking shape with my micro plans, hope i can be done this weekend.
re-worked Silky for 2 Spies less, but National Epic & CH gained.
Also allows letting Holy Farm failgold flow into NE, which we get turn 12 / 13
Wonders 16 / 23 now without touching other cities yet.
Taking shape with my micro plans, hope i can be done this weekend.
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Fippy
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Are there time restrictions on when we need the AP completed?
For example would turn 19 (last moment) still be fine?
Important cos it's creating GP priest points, which we not really want in PL or Peking.
edit, Peking would get Engi points from Hagia.
I wonder if we are fine with gambling on our last Gspy, doubt it's more than 15% chance.
Actually an important topic, GPriest would give 4 points from Tao Shrine.
How many lost compared to Gspy would that be, estimated?
Yup, but if we get a Priest we would skip teching Engi & ND, using our slider instead for making up some of those EP.
Hmm i had a mistake there..
i guess Priest would be worth the amount of EP we can create via slider, instead of teching Engi.
+ not having to build ND.
Great Engi would be worse than Priest i think, we could not bulb Engineering fully.
Not great deals i guess, but question will be if any of those would be acceptable risks.
For example would turn 19 (last moment) still be fine?
Important cos it's creating GP priest points, which we not really want in PL or Peking.
edit, Peking would get Engi points from Hagia.
I wonder if we are fine with gambling on our last Gspy, doubt it's more than 15% chance.
Actually an important topic, GPriest would give 4 points from Tao Shrine.
How many lost compared to Gspy would that be, estimated?
Yup, but if we get a Priest we would skip teching Engi & ND, using our slider instead for making up some of those EP.
Hmm i had a mistake there..
i guess Priest would be worth the amount of EP we can create via slider, instead of teching Engi.
+ not having to build ND.
Great Engi would be worse than Priest i think, we could not bulb Engineering fully.
Not great deals i guess, but question will be if any of those would be acceptable risks.
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elitetroops
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Only time restriciont on AP is that we need the vote result that decides us as AP resident befroe we end game. If completed end of turn 19, vote takes place t20 and we could technically win that turn for t21 victory screen.
Romans and Church are both in Merc, we wouldn't get trade route to espionage city. Can we do espionage mission to change them back to decentralization (or whatever the base economic civic is called)?
A Prophet for shrine loses about 7 points in final score compared to GSpy. GSpy is worth 3000*5.5 = 16500
= 11 points.
Romans and Church are both in Merc, we wouldn't get trade route to espionage city. Can we do espionage mission to change them back to decentralization (or whatever the base economic civic is called)?
A Prophet for shrine loses about 7 points in final score compared to GSpy. GSpy is worth 3000*5.5 = 16500
= 11 points.
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Fippy
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Currently i am leaning towards Music after HBR and before Theo, to get Sistine as building option for Peking.
Can be finished very late, avoiding GP pollution.
Then sprint towards Theo with golden age & T 5/6 failgolds.
PL gets AP once we finish teching Theo, and completes late as well.
Mumbai chops out Hagia Sophia "fast".
What do you think?
Can be finished very late, avoiding GP pollution.
Then sprint towards Theo with golden age & T 5/6 failgolds.
PL gets AP once we finish teching Theo, and completes late as well.
Mumbai chops out Hagia Sophia "fast".
What do you think?
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I think that sounds okay. My thought is that AP is a really tough build without bonuses - although the other stuff will have bonuses. But if you have the production stuff mapped out then sure.
Must be party time in München!
I suspect it's always party time in Helsinki
Must be party time in München!
I suspect it's always party time in Helsinki
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Fippy
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A bit not that long today.
(i know it's not very exciting, waiting for my micro and all..)
Planning game, expected with such a point system.
Not much we can do, if we had rushed here we would have no chance against Homies.
Sadly we cannot decide 23 wonders and all these other thingies we need while we play.
I hope those preparations will make playing turns more fun at least, if we can focus on our units and not ask every turn "what should city x do now".
Regular deity games are cake walks compared to this level of detail here..
not that long today.(i know it's not very exciting, waiting for my micro and all..)
Planning game, expected with such a point system.
Not much we can do, if we had rushed here we would have no chance against Homies.
Sadly we cannot decide 23 wonders and all these other thingies we need while we play.
I hope those preparations will make playing turns more fun at least, if we can focus on our units and not ask every turn "what should city x do now".
Regular deity games are cake walks compared to this level of detail here..
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Yep some planning was definately needed here. Very complicated game to get everything right and just play each turn by turn.
Shame we didn't realise how quickly this game could be over by earlier. 70-75 turn win may be one of the quickest SGOTM wins ever. Homies could be sub 70 turns? Wait and see as they are still playing.
Shame we didn't realise how quickly this game could be over by earlier. 70-75 turn win may be one of the quickest SGOTM wins ever. Homies could be sub 70 turns? Wait and see as they are still playing.
Fippy
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Okay, Peking test shows interesting stuff we can discuss
Last Gspy on turn 20.
Can reach Legendary with road, so our Spy missions time would indeed be t20.
We cannot skip Paci (for Roosi diplo), that plan can be dropped.
We can whip Sistine on t19, one turn before, so no GP pollution and an expensive wonder gained..goodie.
Music not needed before t12, so we can tech Theo after HBR (good i think).
We get Tao mishes on T2 (FV Paci), 7, 8 and 19 with my current micro plan.
If we need more early, i can drop the 2 Spies in my plan in favor of them, but those Spies would be nice to add.
Think i could do mish whip on t18 a bit earlier, but not tested yet.
Peking would be size 5 on T19 (for counting our AP pop).
Micro looks rather simple
Thoughts on timing here?
Last Gspy on turn 20.
Can reach Legendary with road, so our Spy missions time would indeed be t20.
We cannot skip Paci (for Roosi diplo), that plan can be dropped.
We can whip Sistine on t19, one turn before, so no GP pollution and an expensive wonder gained..goodie.
Music not needed before t12, so we can tech Theo after HBR (good i think).
We get Tao mishes on T2 (FV Paci), 7, 8 and 19 with my current micro plan.
If we need more early, i can drop the 2 Spies in my plan in favor of them, but those Spies would be nice to add.
Think i could do mish whip on t18 a bit earlier, but not tested yet.
Peking would be size 5 on T19 (for counting our AP pop).
Micro looks rather simple
Spoiler :
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elitetroops
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I'm not sure where all the Tao mishes are going, can't really comment on that.
GSpy mission t20 is good enough. This means we could gift the city already t19 and perform all our spy missions t20, depending on if all spies are ready.
A potential issue with Romans or Church as recipients of EP city is that they might not even be willing to accept it, if they reach 4 cities before that. Mehmed is less likely to reach 4 cities, and if he does, we could gift him 3 cities that bridge the gap. However, if we have to do this to be able to gift EP city, then we must let him own them one turn before taking them back, which means he could whip defenders. I don't like that! I still think the easiest option would be if we can use Mehmed for spy gift city and then cap him by gifting same cities we gift to Roosevelt when we cap him. Must recalculate score if it comes to that.
GSpy mission t20 is good enough. This means we could gift the city already t19 and perform all our spy missions t20, depending on if all spies are ready.
A potential issue with Romans or Church as recipients of EP city is that they might not even be willing to accept it, if they reach 4 cities before that. Mehmed is less likely to reach 4 cities, and if he does, we could gift him 3 cities that bridge the gap. However, if we have to do this to be able to gift EP city, then we must let him own them one turn before taking them back, which means he could whip defenders. I don't like that! I still think the easiest option would be if we can use Mehmed for spy gift city and then cap him by gifting same cities we gift to Roosevelt when we cap him. Must recalculate score if it comes to that.
We also need quite a few 2mp units to retake cities. This is one thing late HA can do. That and attack mehmed. Downside here is if we use Mehmed it would take at least 2 turns to take his capital if he reaches 100 culture which he probably already has. English are a more interesting option. My gut is their capital will be on a small island. In any case we can adapt plans as we get closer to T20.
Actually we have 2-3 turns of Toku Ep left. Then we need to decide.
Actually we have 2-3 turns of Toku Ep left. Then we need to decide.
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Fippy
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We should work on going thru all diplo possibilities with Roosi, before thinking about other AIs for Legendary city imo.
So using religion is out, what do we think about tech gifts?
Would Roosi gaining some military power techs be bad or good?
Thinking about Church here, Roosi a bit stronger might actually help us vassaling him.
Possible gift techs without wonders are:
Alpha, maths, currency, Calendar (we build Mauso soon), MC, Machinery, HBR
Monarchy, Construction when we have them.
Others like CoL or Aest would put some of our wonders in danger, for Aest that's unfortunate cos Drama would be fine.
Gifting late would be fine thou.
So using religion is out, what do we think about tech gifts?
Would Roosi gaining some military power techs be bad or good?
Thinking about Church here, Roosi a bit stronger might actually help us vassaling him.
Possible gift techs without wonders are:
Alpha, maths, currency, Calendar (we build Mauso soon), MC, Machinery, HBR
Monarchy, Construction when we have them.
Others like CoL or Aest would put some of our wonders in danger, for Aest that's unfortunate cos Drama would be fine.
Gifting late would be fine thou.
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We also have to vassel roosi! We can get enough power to vassel Church if we heavily whip near end.
Resources - Out till road connection. Not possible as his culture stops us building a connection.
Civics - We would have to steal banking and tech guilds? Unlikely. Also give him banking.
+1 from peace over x turns?
Techs possible but you suggest 10 techs.
Liberating cities? Elite suggests not possible.
AP you voted for us? +2? Need to be a vassal to vote for us.
Yep and Americans are industrial too.
If were gifting late we need to be pretty sure we have our EP on the right AI!
Resources - Out till road connection. Not possible as his culture stops us building a connection.
Civics - We would have to steal banking and tech guilds? Unlikely. Also give him banking.
+1 from peace over x turns?
Techs possible but you suggest 10 techs.
Liberating cities? Elite suggests not possible.
AP you voted for us? +2? Need to be a vassal to vote for us.
Yep and Americans are industrial too.
If were gifting late we need to be pretty sure we have our EP on the right AI!
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elitetroops
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If we have a shared war we can always open borders. We could bribe Mehmed on Church before we declare on Mehmed, then Church will open borders. According to diplo we should be able to bribe Mehmed on Roose as well, but currently he says he would have nothing to gain. I do not know what that response means or if it is likely to change.
Another crazy "let's change everything" idea.
What if we didn't steal CS from Toku and instead used him as EP gift city target. We can also get OB with him if we bribe Mehmed on him before declaring on Mehmed. In my test yesterday we got to 71854 with one more succesful spy mission. The EP we planned to used to steal CS would allow that 45th spy mission. If we can get a total of 73500, then we'd need one less wonder. We wouldn't have Bureau, but we would need one tech and one wonder less. Bureau hammers and commerce are for sure not enough to make up for Engineering and ND. Shouldn't forget high upkeep cost of Bureau either.
Oh wait.. We'd need to get Toku somehow into another religion first for this to work. Requires a missionary other than Tao. Could be challenging.
Mehmed's Jan will teleport when we declare on him. It is no threat to gift city.
Correction: Getting another religion to Toku isn't that hard at all. Give him some European city we've just captured, which is still in revolt. Weird that he is still Confusian despite not having any Confu city. He should switch religions immediately when he receives a city with religion.
Another crazy "let's change everything" idea.
What if we didn't steal CS from Toku and instead used him as EP gift city target. We can also get OB with him if we bribe Mehmed on him before declaring on Mehmed. In my test yesterday we got to 71854 with one more succesful spy mission. The EP we planned to used to steal CS would allow that 45th spy mission. If we can get a total of 73500, then we'd need one less wonder. We wouldn't have Bureau, but we would need one tech and one wonder less. Bureau hammers and commerce are for sure not enough to make up for Engineering and ND. Shouldn't forget high upkeep cost of Bureau either.Oh wait.. We'd need to get Toku somehow into another religion first for this to work. Requires a missionary other than Tao. Could be challenging.
Mehmed's Jan will teleport when we declare on him. It is no threat to gift city.
Correction: Getting another religion to Toku isn't that hard at all. Give him some European city we've just captured, which is still in revolt. Weird that he is still Confusian despite not having any Confu city. He should switch religions immediately when he receives a city with religion.
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Fippy
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Elite keeps bringing great everything changes ideas
Worth exploring more for sure, CS should not be crucial.
Peking 5-pop whips ~250 Sistine hammers in the end, PL can probably do similar with AP and without Bur.
Not needing Engi would be huge, i wonder if that's something we want to do either way..
using EP slider for more culture, instead of science slider?
JC also would declare on most AIs, including Roosi (we just don't like you enuf), only AI with "nothing to gain" currently for him: Biz.
Requries only pleased, which we can do easily by tech gift.
So we have Mehmed and JC for bribes, i think that would be save enuf in case one of them will not suddenly.
Worth exploring more for sure, CS should not be crucial.
Peking 5-pop whips ~250 Sistine hammers in the end, PL can probably do similar with AP and without Bur.
Not needing Engi would be huge, i wonder if that's something we want to do either way..
using EP slider for more culture, instead of science slider?
JC also would declare on most AIs, including Roosi (we just don't like you enuf), only AI with "nothing to gain" currently for him: Biz.
Requries only pleased, which we can do easily by tech gift.
So we have Mehmed and JC for bribes, i think that would be save enuf in case one of them will not suddenly.
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Well 600 EP gets about 3-3500 culture. Worth 2 points. Would we really get OB with Toku? So the EP we have on toku is worth 2 points. The guy has a point.
Engineering is useful for front line troops.
So 1200 EP would gain us about 4-5 points. We would only need 700 more. it would mean keeping Toku alive a bit longer.
Engineering is useful for troop movement. Pretty sure killing Toku near end would be easy when we mass whip units. OB is mean issue.
Engineering is useful for front line troops.
So 1200 EP would gain us about 4-5 points. We would only need 700 more. it would mean keeping Toku alive a bit longer.
Engineering is useful for troop movement. Pretty sure killing Toku near end would be easy when we mass whip units. OB is mean issue.
