[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Phoenix Rising

[elitetroops]

Engineering was never a must. Paper and UoS is the much cheaper option. I thought you wanted Engi for road movement.

OB with Toku is guaranteed if we bribe Mehmed on him.

There are plenty of reasons why Toku would be a good option, but the big one is actually that it allows one turn earlier victory! Let's say we use Roose or Church as EP target. If we perform EP spy missions and declare war t20, we take back all cities t20, t21 he capitulates, t22 victory. With toku we can declare and kill him t20, t21 victory.

As we gift EP city one turn before declaring, he will move at least one archer out of his capital towards new city, possibly two.

 

[Fippy]

Okay new page, we also have JC as bribe AI.
Requires pleased, but he would declare on all cept Biz currently.
Getting pleased would be easy via tech gift.

If it's 100% open borders during shared war, we are set for using Toku imo.

 

[elitetroops]

Meh. Now I realize we really won't have any culture at all in 2nd and 3rd cities. Wonders all complete very late. Even if we have almost 72k in gift city, we won't reach the required 73.5k total. This means with only 22 wonders we'd need a 26th spy mission. That one costs almost 650EP and gives over 3.5k culture. With a 26th mission our score is for sure high enough.

650EP from slider should still be much faster than teching Engineering.

I don't see any point in running culture mission in Pigs. It doesn't have any of our base culture.

If we are set on Toku, then our spies should move out of his territory immediately. No point having them caught, save them for culture missions.

 

[lymond]

Does Holy City of Pigs Gifting have any of our culture? Can we run a culture mission?

Did we plan to finish Medieval era techs? (edit: guess no way to finish Medieval within our timeframe)

Holy Pigs has no Chinese culture...

 

[Fippy]

650 slider EP is not much, how many Spies would we need for the Toku plan (no Engineering) ?

 

[elitetroops]

Toku plan needs 2 more successful spy missions. So 2-3 more spies. But we don't need to steal CS and are guaranteed to have those we have now.

@lymond we are still going to gift him a culture city. Holy pigs would be too far away from capital and we can't culture bomb it.

 

[lymond]

Well, I'll ask again..can we spread culture mission in Holy Pigs since it does not have our culture?

 

[Gumbolt]

No as we have no culture from another city covering the city tile.

 

[lymond]

nvm...just remembered we plan to bomb the city first ..duh

 

[Gumbolt]

EP wise on Toku.
Were stealing a tech work 1000 beakers at a cost of 500 beakers. 2-1 return.
500 Ep gets us 3000. 6-1 return.

You can't run culture missions in pigs as it does nto have our culture on the city centre tile. Plus we need to culture bomb.

How do we get OB with Toku? Do we plan to vassel him? Currently -4 diplo with Toku and he opens borders at pleased? So 8 to make up?

• Culture Ministry: 49 points. (So 73500 needed for 49)
  
• Diplomatic Ministry: 58
  
• Civil Ministry: 97 points
  
• Military Ministry: 100 points for conquest
  
• Science Ministry: 28 points
  
• Construction Ministry: 88 points (22 wonders)
• 420

How do we get the shared war?? Can we bribe him? Yes the return on CS would of been marginal. It would of provide a boost on Ep if we had run the slider. I don't think we planned to do this. We will get CS soon enough anyway. So we will have it for some of the 20 turns.

Oh we don't even need CS to win? Yep then ignore it. Saving those 2 spies will be good.

Actually debating this for 2 weeks has really improved our end game. Using Ottoman would of been really frustrating. We can now whip HA near end to take out Toku. With a bit of luck Toku will send archers his way? Still need to be careful of his UU. I just hope no barb cities get captured here. That would be very frustrating.

Lots of worker actions to stop here as well. Cottages/ workshops etc. Even farms. I guess happiness or health resources could help?

 

[elitetroops]

Stealing CS isn't even worth 1000 beakers, since bureau wouldn't pay back 1000 beakers before game ends. CS is worth much less.

Diplo relations are irrelevant if we are in a shared war. We can have -100 diplo and he will still open borders.

Furious Toku willing to open borders:

Spoiler :

We get shared war by bribing Mehmed on him and then declaring on Mehmed ourselves.

It seems the "we would have nothing to gain" response has to do with power rating. Toku's power rating is unlikely to increase much, so I'm pretty sure the Mehmed bribe will still be available when time comes.

How do you expect to get CS? It's certainly not worth teching.

 

[Fippy]

Most excellent, Elite
(let's remember we can also use JC for Toku bribe, should Mehmed not work suddenly)

 

[Gumbolt]

What elite lacks in playing time his game knowledge certainly makes up for this. How are we doing plan wise. 2 spies saved.

The lack of CS might throw your numbers out slightly Mylene? Especially for our capital?

Taking down Tokyo was still useful here. Could of gifted him more of a junk city but nvm. Having a city right next to ours works well. Who knows what he might of spammed there.

 

[Gumbolt]

What might of made this game more interesting is if they put a condition you had to get at least 1 point in each ministry. Albeit it might just be extending the game for the sake of it.

So how could we fix that? Yep lack of CS causes other issues? Could we squeeze it in elsewhere? Needs a tao city?

So solutions.
1. We steal CS and still use Toku for Ap but lose 500 EP for the tech?
2. We build AP elsewhere? Is it fact CS impacts builds in PL?

What is build plan in PL?

Otherwise were looking at an extra tech and wonder.

Well to win Elite's 20 turn challenge we will have to adapt our plan. He keeps throwing us curve balls.

 

[Fippy]

Afraid it does, without CS PL cannot build AP.

Overall i am in trouble with PL, outside of that CS issue also with Gspy at 400.
300 would be easier, but how will we get our Great Artist at 400 in FV?

I think FV might need to be re-worked completely, so we get NE there (Artist points + 100%) to fix GP problems.

Well CS adds + 50% hammers, also has a big impact on AP whip (much less penalty).
But our biggest problem currently are GP points, PL cannot get a Gspy at 400..Bejing would be quicker in all cases.

I have to see that we get Great Artist at 400 in FV before anything else now.

 

[elitetroops]

I can't find original PL micro plan anywhere. Has it been posted?

I realize this has far reaching consequences on all already planned micro, so not sure if I dare suggest it... Since we are not stealing CS and don't need bureau change, maybe we could adjust timing of Golden Age, if this would help GP production?

I actually don't even know what is current Golden Age plan..

 

[Fippy]

Nope, i had not done PL yet..
sadly, or i would have realized our GP plan mistake.

Gspy at 400 points = too big task for PL, we can get only 3 Spy slots with CH + IA.

It's also too big for Great Artist at 400 in FV, trying to get NE in there now which has synergy with Artist points.

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I am not sure if Gspy #2 (300) at T17 in PL is good enuf at all.
Peking reaches 300 points on T16 ugh.

We would have to get Gspy from PL at T16, then somehow fit Artist in on t18 in FV, and get last GSpy from Peking on t20 (or more likely, delayed on t21)..
i had underestimated the timing of GP.

Golden Age starts on T6 in my plan, same turn that Mauso finishes.
It's timing works well, problem is that PL (where we planned Gspy at 300 points) gets only 9 base points from 3 Spies = 27 points during golden age and with Paci.

Order in which we get GP 300-500 is very complicated.

Or in easy words..i think we cannot get all GP until t20 anymore.
That problem is not connected with CS or AP.

Golden Age imo is not movable, as we cannot finish Mauso before T6.

 

[Fippy]

What we could do is gamble on an earlier GP in PL..
adding some scientist points, maybe 15%.

But i would only start running tests on that if we agree on doing so.

Everybody can help with that problem and tests.
Golden Age on T6 (as mentioned, i think we need to stay with that cos of Mauso in FV).

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GP pollution = 16% for T15 Gspy in PL (13% scientist, 3% Engi).
Should allow us getting other GP as planned.

 

[Gumbolt]

Have you factored in parth?

Risking scientists could be too risky? 14% can be very random with GP.

 

[Fippy]

Parth is included yep.
(starting on t13, in Cowabunga)

We can get all AP hammers on T19, vote for leader would be on T20.
(no CS / Bur).

Personally i would be satisfied with that, 16% chance of wrong GP.
GS would not be completely useless, paper can be bulbed and we would have to stretch our EP via slider..
who knows how our game goes anyways.

Micro

Spoiler :

1 CH
2 forge whip (work 5 floodplains)
3 IA
4 chop completes IA
5 CH whip + chop
6 wealth
7 AP
8 Spy
9 whip Spy
10 AP
11 Spy
12 whip Spy
13 AP + chop (use 3 spies, Engineer, 2 scientist)
14 AP (drop 1 scientist)
15 HA or Theatre cold, Gspy completes
16 AP + chop
17 HA cold
18 AP
19 finish AP

My test saves added.
PL GA one starts on T6, wealth is used on T6 cos i am not sure if we have Theo here already.