Shadow Game - Is this just a map *I* can not beat?

[AcaMetis]

Can they peace vassal during a war? I’ve never seen that before.

AIs becoming a vassal during a war is basically a fancier war bribe - rather than tech/gold/etc. they agree to become someone's vassal, and that someone in turn joins the war against whoever. The same war bribe rules apply, BTW, so an AI that refuses to be bribed on you will refuse another AI offering to become a vassal as a bribe while that war is ongoing.

 

[Build2Much]

From know your enemy:

Edit - so basically I would have to get to friendly with Zara, while at war with his religious brother, to avoid the peace vassal from occurring.

 

[Build2Much]

@AcaMetis i considered last week sending you this map for a NC before just deciding to try to get my own shadow game. Wasn’t sure if you take requests.

 

[a pen-dragon]

In one attempt the ten turns of peace disappeared early as well and I’m not sure why - maybe AP?

There is one edge case I know where a new peace treaty gets cancelled: If a previous peace treaty runs out, in the last turn it is visible it can be revoked. If one first gets a new peace treaty with the same player, e.g. by begging again successfully, before cancelling the old one, then cancelling the old one will cancel both.

To avoid this always manually end existing peace treaties before forming new ones.

Also peace treaties with other players get cancelled when they vassal to somebody.

 

[Gumbolt]

Play to the AI weaknesses. They may have a 50 strong stack but it will move slowly and in the mean time you attack and take the other cities and let the stack move around slowly. They will have 1mp seige that will slow down their advance greatly. Cuirs or cavs should beat knights in large numbers but no need to attack his stack early on. Wait till you have whipped 30-40+ cuirs.

 

[AcaMetis]

i considered last week sending you this map for a NC before just deciding to try to get my own shadow game. Wasn’t sure if you take requests.

I don't, though that's mainly because I'm not the only person allowed to post NC maps (when I remember ). A Hannibal NC map would be awkward given he's not scheduled for another 30-odd maps, but not impossible either.

 

[Build2Much]

Play to the AI weaknesses. They may have a 50 strong stack but it will move slowly and in the mean time you attack and take the other cities and let the stack move around slowly. They will have 1mp seige that will slow down their advance greatly. Cuirs or cavs should beat knights in large numbers but no need to attack his stack early on. Wait till you have whipped 30-40+ cuirs.

I’m ready - i have 2 medic2 chariots to run around with my stack and a woodsman3 warrior waiting for the first general to become a super healer. Just need a big enough stack and a way to move them across the water…

I don’t think I’m definitely getting that number if units out and to the continent before Zara can match my cuirs and is close to rifling. The two tech leaders are going in different directions and then trading with each other.

 

[Gumbolt]

I’m ready - i have 2 medic2 chariots to run around with my stack and a woodsman3 warrior waiting for the first general to become a super healer. Just need a big enough stack and a way to move them across the water…

I don’t think I’m definitely getting that number if units out and to the continent before Zara can match my cuirs and is close to rifling. The two tech leaders are going in different directions and then trading with each other.

Whip whip whip.Get your army then decide who is best to attack. Frigates would be annoying to fight against. Keep an eye on culture too. I assume you know how to galleon chain? So 3 units can move in 1 turn across 20-30 sea tiles by switching ships.

 

[Build2Much]

Whip whip whip.Get your army then decide who is best to attack. Frigates would be annoying to fight against. Keep an eye on culture too. I assume you know how to galleon chain? So 3 units can move in 1 turn across 20-30 sea tiles by switching ships.

The big guy is going to have frigates, he’s already got several galleons roaming around and just hit Astro. He can pay to upgrade, has very deep pockets - I think he is pocketing fail gold every time Gandhi completes a wonder.

And no, I have not been galleon chaining. Once I get my initial invasion that seems like it could be a big help if I can keep them from being sunk.

 

[drewisfat]

Edit - so basically I would have to get to friendly with Zara, while at war with his religious brother, to avoid the peace vassal from occurring.

Land target status (bordering 8 or more of a neighboring civ's land tiles) is a big component of capitulations and peacevassals. Sometimes I will attack from an otherwise silly direction to force a buffer zone between the civ I'm conquering and a neighbor he's likely to peacevassal to. If I'm land target with the AI (or even one of my vassals) and he's NOT land target with a third party, I should get the option to capitulate him before he can PV to the third party (unless that third party really dwarfs us in mil. power). This is the brute force method of dealing with peacevassal nonsense.
You can also beg a truce for similar invulnerability. That still requires pleased though, and it's unlikely you can do back to back truce begs, so if you beg to prevent him from being bribed in at the start of the war, you can't rely on begging to lock him out of accepting peacevassaling.

 

[Build2Much]

So I last stopped at turn 179. It is now turn 247. So much has happened. I need some honest assessments from a couple of screenshots. I can take it.

Spoiler :

I finished prepping and attacked Brennus. Landed on turn 194. It went well, even though he had cuirs himself on turn 191 and Gandhi switched to emancipation on turn 193 just to annoy me. I drew Brennus’ big stack to Bibracte and then outside the city, decimated him on turn 201. I had taken 2 coastal cities and headed back towards Bibracte. Then he got rifling and I had to ask for peace. Everyone had rifling.

Admittedly I was a bit on tilt, but I teched to rifling and steel quickly and came back to finish him off with a huge stack of cannons. It was a costly war, my galleons did not make it back home the last time.

So now it is turn 247 (1685AD). I am on my first turn of a golden age. I have switched to rep, bureaucracy, caste, state prop, free religion. I *might* be able to take my current stack through Cyrus but I doubt any further. The culture timer has started. Gilgamesh has Apollo, Zara will blow by him shortly. I only need culture slider for Carthage atm, but they will all start going emancipation. Also Zara has pounded me with espionage, currently 148/turn.

Begin again?

 

[Fippy]

Was taking Brennus as vassal useful?
Zara might plot on you if he's annoyed with Brennus, which i think results in an overall cautious towards you.

 

[Build2Much]

Was taking Brennus as vassal useful?
Zara might plot on you if he's annoyed with Brennus, which i think results in an overall cautious towards you.

Good question, wasn’t my original plan but war weariness on my part (I was ready to be done with this) had something to do with it and I only left him with the northernmost coastal cities. His navy is decent?

If Zara just starts building research in all his cities, which is usually what happens, he will win by space. He has the big army already and could have rolled over the continent if he wanted to.

 

[jorissimo]

So I last stopped at turn 179. It is now turn 247. So much has happened. I need some honest assessments from a couple of screenshots. I can take it.

Spoiler :

I finished prepping and attacked Brennus. Landed on turn 194. It went well, even though he had cuirs himself on turn 191 and Gandhi switched to emancipation on turn 193 just to annoy me. I drew Brennus’ big stack to Bibracte and then outside the city, decimated him on turn 201. I had taken 2 coastal cities and headed back towards Bibracte. Then he got rifling and I had to ask for peace. Everyone had rifling.

Admittedly I was a bit on tilt, but I teched to rifling and steel quickly and came back to finish him off with a huge stack of cannons. It was a costly war, my galleons did not make it back home the last time.

So now it is turn 247 (1685AD). I am on my first turn of a golden age. I have switched to rep, bureaucracy, caste, state prop, free religion. I *might* be able to take my current stack through Cyrus but I doubt any further. The culture timer has started. Gilgamesh has Apollo, Zara will blow by him shortly. I only need culture slider for Carthage atm, but they will all start going emancipation. Also Zara has pounded me with espionage, currently 148/turn.

Begin again?
View attachment 718337View attachment 718338View attachment 718339View attachment 718340

Spoiler :

Brutal tech pace for Immortal. Compare that to my (still not finished) game in the NC De Gaulle thread. Currently at 1800 something and the AI are behind your 1685.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Tanks are still very much on the cards. It is time to settle the better island spots. (i.e. those with food)

Gandhi will take around 90 turns to win culture according to my current estimate. You are 10 techs away from tanks, some of them you might trade.

Gilga is independent from Zara, increasing your available attack angles.

small things:
- switch Brennus out of confu for diplo and try to make him tech something that is worthwhile. (i.e. on the road to tanks)
- give Monty cheap techs for gold if he is no ones, except for vassals you do not care about, worst enemy.
- maybe delete Cuirs if you are paying unit upkeep

The current problem is that Zara is plotting and while he might go for Gilga (and maybe Cyrus) he might be going for you. Gilga (and maybe Cyrus) are land targets, but if he is pleased with them he has a higher base probability to plot on you. He might plot for a looooooong time, cancel his plotting, or he could jump in a few turns. Spread a few units to scout his stack and follow it. Panic if required.

Zara might plot on you if he's annoyed with Brennus, which i think results in an overall cautious towards you.

AFAIK, even if he is cautious towards Brennus it is an overall Cautious, as the game rounds everything down.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

This thread is becoming a shadow game. Can thread titles be changed?

Question to others. Assume a better optics, astronomy, and liberalism timing than the OP. Is it actually realistic to attack Ethiopia (first) with curaissers? It just feels cool to be fight Oromo Warriors with flanking 2 curaissers.

 

[Build2Much]

This thread is becoming a shadow game. Can thread titles be changed?

Question to others. Assume a better optics, astronomy, and liberalism timing than the OP. Is it actually realistic to attack Ethiopia (first) with curaissers? It just feels cool to be fight Oromo Warriors with flanking 2 curaissers.

I’m not sure why it would be necessary, but thread title is changed. It is definitely a shadow game.

I think you are right, with all the knowledge we have from learning the map they are the best “early rush” target if you can mobilize quick enough after Astro - they are the closest target, most dangerous when they start acquiring vassals, and have the best + most land. Hannibal should become unstoppable if he can take out his best cities and vassal him first.

To kill time because I didn’t want to move forward last night I speed played the opening to Astro again and I’m much, much better now. Same Astro date except already have monarchy/HR, Carthage is size 14, had both GS out when I hit optics, already have 7 cities. I don’t have to trade with Zara, got alphabet for Monarchy from brennus.

I think trading with Zara and Gandhi is part of the problem I run into - they backfill me, I speed them up.

 

[Fippy]

I wouldn't delete Cuirs now with Zara plotting
They can still help.

 

[Build2Much]

@a pen-dragon i hear you and have (tried to) hear everyone on this thread. I’m literally a guy who was happy messing around on Monarch and taking long breaks from Civ 4 who for some reason decided to try to get better 20 years after release? The grind could be too much for me

If I commit to tanks, which I think is probably my only option right now, knowing that I have a 12 turn GA starting right now (my first), am I building wealth/research to squeeze every last drop of tech out for as long as possible until I can actually build tanks? Gandhi for sure has Destroyers floating around, the others will if they don’t have them already, islands are already half settled and my Navy got smacked eventually by brennus, starting almost from scratch, didn’t build enough frigates. Did get at least 2 good production cities from brennus, but none will get a levee because he of course did not settle on any rivers.

 

[a pen-dragon]

If I commit to tanks, which I think is probably my only option right now, knowing that I have a 12 turn GA starting right now (my first), am I building wealth/research to squeeze every last drop of tech out for as long as possible until I can actually build tanks?

Yes, except for building production infrastructure (forges, factories, plants, good levees, and some health buildings to not starve) and if your safety is threatened. Try to get two GP for a second GA.

Basically, what you want is reach Assembly line ASAP, industrialize, go for tanks and build tanks. Flight would be nice, but is entirely optional, and can safely come later. By later I mean after you start the war, to airlift some reinforcements.

You do not need any other infrastructure, except maybe the odd library in good commerce cities you conquered.

If Zara does not attack you, build wealth (or science if you break even at 0% gold), and only the above infrastructure. Workshop/Watermill anything except towns and essential farms now. Workshop towns, except maybe your capital, after reaching Industrialization. With SP any city that has a few workable (preferably flat) land tiles and a minimum of food has the potential to be a production city. As a rule of thumb in this situation, I would say that 5 workshops make a decent production spot, and such a city is worth it to be grabbed now.

Regarding your Navy, relative strength will only matter when at war.

islands are already half settled

Spoiler :

One galleon is sufficient for settling, ofc if you have more, then use more.

According to your minimap the eastern island is not settled, there are two good spots there, and a few more scattered. You do not need to grab them all. See above for what can be considered a good production spot.