strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Also, in that same game, let it auto game to this time period and see if you get this amount of 
also, i never had over 30,000 before, even at 0??
also, i never had over 30,000 before, even at 0??
Single Player bugs and crashes - After the 24th of February 2014
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
There's currently no drain on education I think... I don't know. I wish the rest of the team (like Hydro) would answer if there is or not. If population isn't set to drain education then at the moment it's only going to go into the positive, and a lot. And if it goes into the positive that much (without a challenge to it's steady growth) then it's going to cause a lot of excess gold like that.
I know I have the game but I'm about to test some other stuff. What kind of education levels are your cities showing?
I know I have the game but I'm about to test some other stuff. What kind of education levels are your cities showing?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Latest SVN, I can't load my saves. I get a wrong/incompatible format message.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Same here
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
I have been exploiting the ability of Assassins and Highwaymen to load onto normal galleons to a considerable extent, and sometimes rescue Warlords by ship when they lack enough movement to get back to safety. I have never hit this restriction. If it exists, it was introduced recently (I think my SVN is 7333).
When the ship is stacked with allied ships (and not in a city or fort), then the HN will attack the other ships, and consequently not load on the transport. This bug has probably been around forever (reported it some months ago).
I have however hit the converse restriction. I quickly found the transport promo on my Dragon Ship to be a write-off, as it would only carry HNs... This bug (imo it is a bug, but it may not be) could likewise be as old as the transport ability on HN ships.
The other more minor bug I reported before (but which may offer clues to figure current conundrums out) is that when you move a (non-HN naturally) ship which is carrying an HN, into the same tile as an allied ship, that other ship jumps out of the tile. However I haven't seen or tested this recently, so maybe it has been fixed.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I must've just put a 35 civ dll in place of the 50 (it's really tough to do that right every time!)
I'll have that fixed very quickly.
Ok, so it was being enforced a little opposite to its intention but either way all the issues you just noted may well be corrected at this point. Let me know if you find more such oddities.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
A few things:
1. @ DH,, why does the Great Farmer start at 110 turns???? Thats about 1000 years??pic 1
2. I have never seen this before, over a 1000
and 
pic 2
3. In the civics area there are btns not being seen?? (pic 3)
4. @ Hydro,, the Police APC doesnt have - crime????
pic 4
1. @ DH,, why does the Great Farmer start at 110 turns???? Thats about 1000 years??pic 1
2. I have never seen this before, over a 1000
and pic 23. In the civics area there are btns not being seen?? (pic 3)
4. @ Hydro,, the Police APC doesnt have - crime????
pic 4
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Huge calculation problem??
If i am at 60% its research slider is + 181000ish
at 55% its - 225000ish
something is seriously wrong there????
Now to other stuff, the infectionous smog just stays and stays and stays, and then it begin to spread out, and it will not go away, i mean come on now.
Its around the Viking Civ. If we are going to use that kind of Bio stuff, then it needs to be countered somehow, and fast. pic 3 said this in 1741 post also.
Plus this Radioactive Dust, is a bunch of crap also, it took me all to this point ion the game to BUILD all those buildings and then poof 90% are wiped out, thats total BS. Also this keeps coming and coming and coming also, BS.
Also my Special Forces could not attack the enemy in the water area (pic 4) but my Helicopter could, ??? I should be able to attack, its a walk way??
If i am at 60% its research slider is + 181000ish
at 55% its - 225000ish
something is seriously wrong there????
Now to other stuff, the infectionous smog just stays and stays and stays, and then it begin to spread out, and it will not go away, i mean come on now.
Its around the Viking Civ. If we are going to use that kind of Bio stuff, then it needs to be countered somehow, and fast. pic 3 said this in 1741 post also.
Plus this Radioactive Dust, is a bunch of crap also, it took me all to this point ion the game to BUILD all those buildings and then poof 90% are wiped out, thats total BS. Also this keeps coming and coming and coming also, BS.
Also my Special Forces could not attack the enemy in the water area (pic 4) but my Helicopter could, ??? I should be able to attack, its a walk way??
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
As far as I know there has not been any change in the Great Farmer for many many versions. It has always taken so long because it unbalances the game if faster.
Workers, at least the advanced forms, are supposed to be able to clean up the radioactive stuff and I thought they could clean up the other stuff also.
Workers, at least the advanced forms, are supposed to be able to clean up the radioactive stuff and I thought they could clean up the other stuff also.
God-Emperor
Deity
I think there are builds for worker type units (land and water) to remove that infectious smog stuff, although since you are before nuclear power tech you are probably not far enough in the tech tree to have the option. I think removing that feature requires the gene manipulation tech.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
A fix to that would take a serious audit of what's taking place and that could take weeks to resolve. I'm really tired of debugging for a while. I'll be playing a game for a bit and developing some things I've wanted to work on for a while but have been held back by issues like these on for far too long already. As I begin to encounter issues like these I'll see what I can do. Much easier to deal with them when you find them yourself because you've got a more clear idea of how it might've led to the problem.2. I have never seen this before, over a 1000
Yeah, that doesn't sound quite right...4. @ Hydro,, the Police APC doesnt have - crime????
When you say 60% vs 55% do you mean 60% unallocated (thus towards gold) or 60% research?Huge calculation problem??
If i am at 60% its research slider is + 181000ish
at 55% its - 225000ish
something is seriously wrong there????
I don't know if you've got some building or set of building conditions taking place there that's causing this many issues (and specialist reassignments can create very odd swings in calculations) or if perhaps you've hit an integer overload. You MIGHT have. These are issues others have promised to help with and then decided to stop working on the mod. I will have to take a look into it at some point but I'd need to try to figure out when and how it starts going wacko. Maybe a civic or set of civic choices?
I wonder if it's actually legitimate and you have THAT much commerce coming in somehow that a slight shift can make that big a change... (doubt it though)
From what source is the stuff coming into play at all? There's a weapon that creates this stuff ... assuming you're playing the no nukes option I don't think it would be accessible but I'm not sure because I've never seen the weapon in use in the game before, only in a test.
What kind of enemy was it? Was it a boat? Was it possible that the helicopter wasn't considered to be IN the tunnel but rather flying above the water and thus it could actually engage the ship while the special forces aren't made of Jesus troops and thus able to walk on the top of the water and are thus forced to use the 'UNDER' water tunnel and are thus not able to attack the ship?
If the 'enemy unit' was another land unit then we may have an issue. Otherwise it was performing exactly as it should've been and a LONG overdue bug has finally been resolved. (The next step to resolving would be to allow them to share the space despite being able to see each other and being at war. Still looking into that...)
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
A fix to that would take a serious audit of what's taking place and that could take weeks to resolve. I'm really tired of debugging for a while. I'll be playing a game for a bit and developing some things I've wanted to work on for a while but have been held back by issues like these on for far too long already. As I begin to encounter issues like these I'll see what I can do. Much easier to deal with them when you find them yourself because you've got a more clear idea of how it might've led to the problem.
So what your saying then is C2C NO longer has a debugger person, so no need to put bugs/crashes here any longer??
Yeah, that doesn't sound quite right...
When you say 60% vs 55% do you mean 60% unallocated (thus towards gold) or 60% research?
I don't know if you've got some building or set of building conditions taking place there that's causing this many issues (and specialist reassignments can create very odd swings in calculations) or if perhaps you've hit an integer overload. You MIGHT have. These are issues others have promised to help with and then decided to stop working on the mod. I will have to take a look into it at some point but I'd need to try to figure out when and how it starts going wacko. Maybe a civic or set of civic choices?
I wonder if it's actually legitimate and you have THAT much commerce coming in somehow that a slight shift can make that big a change... (doubt it though)
Will you at least look at my savedgame, and the "slider" for research going up and down on it you WILL SEE, a HUUUUGE discrepancy in this and it isnt buildings that are causing this or civics. EDIT: No offense to you but this is really pissing me off now
From what source is the stuff coming into play at all? There's a weapon that creates this stuff ... assuming you're playing the no nukes option I don't think it would be accessible but I'm not sure because I've never seen the weapon in use in the game before, only in a test.
Nope i have nukes on, which i will never play again, these are just plain STUPID to play with them on
What kind of enemy was it? Was it a boat? Was it possible that the helicopter wasn't considered to be IN the tunnel but rather flying above the water and thus it could actually engage the ship while the special forces aren't made of Jesus troops and thus able to walk on the top of the water and are thus forced to use the 'UNDER' water tunnel and are thus not able to attack the ship?
It was a regular unit on the rail or what ever it is that you can walk on water stuff.
If the 'enemy unit' was another land unit then we may have an issue. Otherwise it was performing exactly as it should've been and a LONG overdue bug has finally been resolved. (The next step to resolving would be to allow them to share the space despite being able to see each other and being at war. Still looking into that...)
What David111 said in the other thread, you can see exactly in my savedgame also, and i HATE that bombers cant at least bomb some of the defenses down from the airplanes designed to do so, this is just stupid otherwise IMPO, and the heck with that defense strategy stuff you mentioned about it in that thread, doesnt make sense to me. That is what i have complained about already.
And YES, we will see more than likely a ton more savedgames go into the Modern Era and beyond now, there is no doubt about that.
Now that we shunned alberts2 away, i am sorry your the only C++ guy now. Wish he would come back. He was responsible for people getting to the Modern Era and beyond now, at least IMPO.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
No... I suppose I'm just getting tired of such enormous underlying bugs that appear in an era of play I've not been able to yet experience myself. Total buzzkill to be honest. The problems that are coming up there are so deep it makes me wonder if I even CAN fix them. I'm following in the footsteps of code authors that did NOT value simple straightforward coding. I start getting lost in some of these areas and I may just say hell with it I've better things to do with my life - like learn how to write a program from scratch and do something that's got a chance to pay off. At a point it might start feeling like equal effort between the two options.
I'm sure it is completely wonky. (And tell me about it.) I figure you've probably hit a point where an integer value in your income level has exceeded our integer limits. There are ways to fix it but it's a nightmarish mess. We've all known since Koshling was still here that we needed to figure out some kind of a solution for this - it's just a serious pain in the ass and it's not an overnight task. Might as well abandon all of MY plans for the next cycle so I can address these 'last minute' issues for the next few months.
So I'm not doubting the problem exists. I know it does. I've known it does for the last two years and we've always been insulated from having to fix it by the mod being so imbalanced before that point that few ever reached that point. I'd desperately hoped someone with a bit more advanced understanding of these matters had addressed it before now.
Oh, and that problem you're having with the python may be the cause of both of these issues as it MIGHT be causing a complete breakdown in the memory integrity of other numeric calculations.
Well... I made the option specifically for you because I know you feel that way.
Was it a naval unit or a land unit? Tunnels are underwater and there should be no combat between land units and naval units thanks to tunnels. Choppers are different in that they move OVER the water and do not require a tunnel. If you can't remember if it was a naval unit or a land unit then you'll have to catch a similar situation where you can recall.
Sorry to be cynical about this before but it's kinda frustrating to have a correction that represents a major victory over a problem you'd not been able to solve since noting the problem a year or two beforehand be then reported as a bug once you finally found the way to fix it. Naval units and Land units were never supposed to be able to fight one another thanks to a tunnel.
Not sure what you're trying to quote me on as far as 'that defensive strategy stuff'. His post made me think there are buildings and wonders I know nothing about that are causing some very overwhelming issues. Units being killed without any reason... I have to wonder what the reason is as much as anyone else. Remember this is and always has been a team effort and I've not always been able to see what others have been doing.
I know there are buildings that will damage adjacent units but since I haven't looked at the values they carry in that era I'm not sure if it's that or opportunity fire doing so much damage to adjacent units. I know I'd love to deepen how the work so that it's not so drastic and randomly selective. Its been a task since the first month I came back to the mod and we got Koshling to patch the adjacent damage with a random 'to hit' effect while greatly reducing the damage it did because it was already slaying units outright in the renaissance. Reworking the adjacent damage system to the way I'd really like it to be would be 1/2 a modding cycle itself.
But if the bombing action can't be used to take down city defenses then that is a big problem which leads me to wonder why whoever programmed the minimum defense for entry tag had never run into it and debugged it before we even picked it up and used it in C2C - still... that one's along the lines of something I can easily repair (I hope). Except that working on games this advanced in takes an hour or more just to get setup to take a look at so even this will take some time.
Look... ever since I started working on the mod I identified numerous issues with strategic problems. I have a list of things to do a mile long that would address a lot of these problems but I keep getting stuck on debugging the fundamental functioning of the civil side of the game. Many of the strategic issues simply require a lot of basic game design restructuring. That IS what I enjoy doing and as I play through the Prehistoric era with my wife now I can really see the neat game checks and balances, strategies and counterstrategies taking effect in the harmonious interplay that was intended and I do think than another reason people are getting so far in their games now is because it's running much nicer throughout the beginning eras in terms of combat balance (otherwise one player would get so much a leg up on another so quickly that you'd have to strain yourself to play stupid just to get the game to last.)
But between processing, MAJOR bug fixes, HUGE AI problems, fundamental core issues taking place in regions far more advanced programmers than I have developed (and thus nearly impossible for me to follow) I rarely get the opportunity to work on it. I've not personally had a game with FLIGHT achieved since I started here! So my ability to see how air units are working has been in the dark all along.
I guess I'm just trying to say it's going to take a very very very long time to try to iron out some of these things. So report and complain away and I'll work on it but it's going to be a while for such deep fixes to happen.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I think your reading into the bombing part.
You take a bomber, any bomber, you drop bombs, it WILL cause damage, somehow.
Not taking into effect the minimum defense, which should NOT be applied here, only to land units should this apply. Now see what everyone is saying / / / / ???
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
So... air units CAN bomb the defenses of the city when the minimum defense value still applies? That's good at least.
Why should you not have to bomb the defenses before you can bomb the units? If you have enough air power it shouldn't be a problem to be able to take the defenses down. Enough naval power when attacking a naval city and the defenses melt away in one round. Now... again I haven't been engaged in modern warfare much in the mod but in ALL previous incarnations of Civ IV I've never had a hard time (major understatement) taking the defense values in a city down to as low as it can go while ALSO then having enough firepower to diminish the defenders down to as low as they can go in one round. In AND I found Modern/Post Modern warfare hardly required any land troops at all due to the strength of air units.
Here we may have more bombard defense to keep that from happening yes. I've no idea how strong it may be at this stage so I'll run a few more tests with your war. But you don't seem to have many units out in the field so its tough to get a good feel for things. I'll have to figure out where your naval and air power is so I can test the results of using it.
Just keep in mind that if battles are too easy and wars too easily won, the Cosmos side of the mod will be pointless.
(My modern naval stack alone would probably have somewhere along the lines of 9 of each type of ship and with the carriers among them each filled with the best available fighters. (9 times however many the carriers can carry) My land army would have somewhere in the neighborhood of 50+ units itself (and I've usually got that in the medieval too.) Just going by standards I've played by since vanilla CivIV.)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I wonder if they're the only unit that would... When you say 'linked' do you mean the General has attached itself to the stone thrower or that a General has been made to become a Commander and he's part of the stack or grouped with the stone thrower? I'll need to know this if I'm to test it. Hard to say if Size Matters would have anything to do with this... I won't rule it out but I'm somewhat doubtful unless you were Attaching the Great General to a unit then using that unit as the primary unit to begin a merge with 2 others of the same type. I don't THINK that would create a problem either but I wouldn't rule it out that it could since I've not tried it myself.
I consider attaching a great general to a unit to be the single worst strategic move you can use with a GG anyhow. They're much more powerful providing xp to new units built or as a great commander. This action has not been rebalanced to provide anything close to an equivalent return in power and effectiveness. It does have some merits I suppose... just not enough to compel me to ever consider doing it myself so yeah it's been a little untested.
As for Ranged Bombard, no, throwing units do not have enough range to range assault. Instead, they are good at getting in close, throwing their weapons and getting out of the fight, thus early withdrawal and withdrawal values instead.
@SO: Sorry for getting frustrated there... I was REALLY exhausted yesterday after working up my v35 Changelog and noticing the percentage of how many of those tasks were flat out bug fixes... jeez.
Also, looking back I was overwhelmed with how much work I'd put into this version and then consequently overwhelmed with how broken so many things still are after your posts. I took it a little hard... sorry. I know you're just whistleblowing and not demanding overnight fixes here... such would be completely impossible even if I tried.
But I was hearing reports I felt I was expected to fix by the end of the release cycle... and I just need you to know some of the problems you're pointing out, most notably the income fluctuation and health/happiness accounting breakdowns, are very serious problems we've known about for a very long time and have been long staring us down as huge issues to sort through and address.
Now knowing I'm the only one here who CAN is kinda draining when I've got so many other goals to attend to, not the least of which is gradually developing the strategic layers of the game so that I can eventually get to really balancing the modern era and beyond's combat developments rather than just letting them be the haphazard results of extrapolating increasing values throughout the eras as it tends to be now.
Yes... the amount of effort to get a fully functional AND graceful modern+ era is going to be a long long long long long road. One which I beg of the community to be very patient for.
(And I MUST take little breathers along the way to just relax and play with my wife here which is the real impetus for any of my work in the first place. It would also be nice to do anything else now and then. You have no idea how much time I've been pouring in here! It's consumed just about EVERY waking moment for months now and the only thing driving me is getting my projects finished! So major setbacks to those are just overwhelming.)
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I agree. If you spend all your time on bugs or what others perceive as bugs then you get the feeling you are getting no where. This is where I am at with the Python at the moment. There is a lot of Platyping's code which needs to be updated to the current version for example.
On another topic - the only way I can see for us to move towards the Story Teller line being less one shot usage is to change the Builds in the XML into missions. The only problem with that is that it means duplicating stuff in the dll out into Python and making it invisible to the AI, which is not good! It may be possible to change the Outcome system so that one or more buildings are built and it takes care of the availability and the AI knowing about it.
On another topic - the only way I can see for us to move towards the Story Teller line being less one shot usage is to change the Builds in the XML into missions. The only problem with that is that it means duplicating stuff in the dll out into Python and making it invisible to the AI, which is not good! It may be possible to change the Outcome system so that one or more buildings are built and it takes care of the availability and the AI knowing about it.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Actually... that's the topic I REALLY wanted to get to addressing at the beginning of the cycle here.
I've talked about the Ideas project but I REALLY want you to see how it's going to work before you grow impatient with my side of that contribution. It should be really cool and become a glue to a lot of projects we have taking place. A big part of that is the Storyteller functions. I feel like any work on this before I can get the shell of the Generic Categories and Ideas Projects complete is going to be a royal waste so I really wanted to get on this because you and other team members have projects that need it (actually... every modder on the team is waiting for this whether they know it or not.)
So being stuck on bugs for months is really not harmonious with this plan. Which is why I wanted to take a moment away from debugging and get the basics setup there first. Then get back to debugging. Then progress the combat mod some more (all the while aiding with more contributions to the coding of the Ideas stuff so it would work with what other modders are trying to achieve.)
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