Single Player bugs and crashes v36 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of October 2015

[Thunderbrd]

should I laugh ?
see screenshot

list of the most advanced civs:
Barbar the Great is on range two.

Well, maybe a nice scenario, but far away from that what is the meaning of the game, or?

If Barbar means Barbarian then its a known issue and I think we determined may not be fixable.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>

However, I would support the one city tile modification except that since she was surrounded by forests and hills and so on, she didn't get another tile to work after the first expansion of her cultural setting.

Unbelievable! If she had hills and forest after the main tile expanded to the 9, then she had tiles to work. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. None. I've played with this for over a week with different Option sets including Realistic Culture Spread. And you dismiss it after you have 1 broken game and Rev was the cause!??

That first square isn't a buffer, it's the assumable tiles you'll be able to choose from to work. The best tiles to work are also going to be the slowest to gain access to which will completely negate the careful choosing of the site to settle your city. I'm falling onto the 'not liking this' side of the camp myself but I've been more than happy to consider it. I'm thinking if we are going to offer such a gamestart, which I'm never going to say is a BAD idea because it does have its charms, it will probably need to be an option. And that can be done. You do understand how option edits work now that you've been working with the alternative gamespeeds right?

Again don't you think I know this? I said, "Because most players think that that square of 9 tiles gives them a "buffer" against the opposition".

And I'll say it One More Time, there is an Option that negates this Cultural level change for Poor Culture level, the Minimum City Border. No other Option is needed to further Clutter the Options list.

Sorry to point this out to you T-brd but you are seeing this thru wife colored glasses, no disrespect to whisperr. But if she had not had Rev On we most likely would not even be having this dialogue. I'm not changing it. Nor Am I making it another Option when there is already a counter Option in Place.

Truly Unbelievable.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll have to test it personally before I say more.

The minimum city border is unacceptable as an alternative because it keeps opponent civs from being able to capture tiles right up against the city by culture. IMO, this takes much of the fun of cultural warfare right out.

I do have to consider that it would be VERY easy to local modify. I'm just thinking other players may feel as pissed as she is.

 

[darkkhon]

Missing starting civic "unorganized" from France and Iroquois.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'll have to test it personally before I say more.

That would be wise.

The minimum city border is unacceptable as an alternative because it keeps opponent civs from being able to capture tiles right up against the city by culture. IMO, this takes much of the fun of cultural warfare right out.

Why do you keep lecturing when I know exactly what it does. Am I that inferior in intellect and understanding?

I do have to consider that it would be VERY easy to local modify. I'm just thinking other players may feel as pissed as she is.

This small change to the starting culturally held tiles for a new city did not break or destroy her game. Absolutely not.

The levels for achieving Cultural Level Poor range from 10 to 80 culture points and are scaled to Game Speeds. Do you serious know how fast that is and easy too to accomplish? This is way way overreaction. It is just a small change in the learning of how to use culture better and it is visual. But it will never cost you a game nor does it hinder the AI, which is important.

I personally don't like that the Fort is allowed to have 9 cultural tiles immediately once it is built. Nor do I like it that If it is built within 3 tiles of a city that it can flip one or more of the city's tile Immediately. And you have no way of knowing how strong this cultural hold is either. While a palisade only converts the tile it is on. This has been mentioned by players several times. But I don't see you getting on DH's case over it. Nor telling him he needs to make a "New Option" for it. I have not demanded it be changed cause it "pissed me off". And it is a pisser. But it doesn't "kill" my games.....yet and so I adapt. Just like I have had to adapt to your multitude of changes whether they "pissed" me off or not.

I'm really trying hard to bite my tongue and not get all off myself. So any further replies to you over this will be in a PM.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why do you keep lecturing when I know exactly what it does. Am I that inferior in intellect and understanding?

I'm not lecturing. I'm saying that it's an unacceptable alternative. I figured we were in agreement that this option sucks for numerous reasons, not the least of which that it completely severs the ability for a city to revolt due to culture. I only mention it because you say its an acceptable option to turning off the only city tile start. I'm saying that for players that don't appreciate the change and would quit playing as a result, the suggestion that this option should be 'the fix' is not a sufficient answer.

I personally don't like that the Fort is allowed to have 9 cultural tiles immediately once it is built. Nor do I like it that If it is built within 3 tiles of a city that it can flip one or more of the city's tile Immediately. And you have no way of knowing how strong this cultural hold is either. While a palisade only converts the tile it is on. This has been mentioned by players several times. But I don't see you getting on DH's case over it. Nor telling him he needs to make a "New Option" for it. I have not demanded it be changed cause it "pissed me off". And it is a pisser. But it doesn't "kill" my games.....yet and so I adapt. Just like I have had to adapt to your multitude of changes whether they "pissed" me off or not.

As far as the fort thing is concerned, Koshling was the one to import super forts and that stuff. I've done some debugging on it. DH has never been able to do anything more than use or not use aspects of it. I'm not sure where the culture expansion is defined there.


I'm not demanding anything here. I'm suggesting based on the emphatic feedback I've been given. Thus the wording: 'we may need to'. I'm saying 'please consider it'. That's all. Her experience of it was that it was very unpleasant and she felt that the rev thing was a separate ALSO unpleasant issue. She questions the point of the change.

And you're right when you imply that we all have the right to dig our heels in now and then on certain changes and no change goes uncriticized by all. Therefore don't take this as me making a demand on the subject. We're just discussing here.

 

[Whisperr]

@Joseph_II

The reason TB speaks for me when it comes to "issues" is because he is the diplomat and can be more tactful. Me... well I am blunt and will tell exactly what I think.

I don't like the one tile start, it is a waste of how ever many turns it takes to eventually grow out. It is not at the first culture grow point, I was still at one tile and my next culture point was 50.

Do not tell me I have to play minimum city border, because I have always played the culture game.

As for those ridiculous forts, you start building those around me, I go to war with you because I hate them.

I know I have only been playing Civ since version 3, about 11 years, so I don't have the experience a lot of you veteran players have but I do know the basics, so don't try to come off with the "I don't know what I am doing".

You mentioned the changes TB made, I could give him an "honest" opinion of them if I could get a game going. And most of his changes are options, not someone's ideas thrust upon you.

 

[Taxman66]

Am I the only one who finds this discussion rather... ironic?

 

[Dreifels]

A criminal/spy/warlord etc, may have pillaged the tile. In my current game I have lost a number of tile improvements to hidden units. Need to build more anti crime type units (police dogs etc.).

I have lot if those, but in this case it was not a tile, but a building, and no notificationin log.

 

[Dreifels]

It's possible that where german should be defined but isn't could create an issue. That would mean you need the help of a translator to flesh out German translations.

it's not the problem that English and German words are mixed, what I mean is, that in the case, that the game reads or try to read from a source with different chars or don't find the source, it may cause an unwanted result, i.e. corrupt or incomplete screen.

As one here posted that in his game there is the subfolder with the domadv, but in mine it isn't, I suspect such.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As one here posted that in his game there is the subfolder with the domadv, but in mine it isn't, I suspect such.

That does indeed look to be the problem. The error being that when it was decided to empty the UserSettings folder everything went whereas that folder and probably its contents should not OR the Domestic Advisor needs to be changed to create that folder and its files.

edit Basically what is happening is that instead of using the _KEY_ names for the column headings in the file that defines what you want where on the screen it uses the actual text, except in some places. This is then stored in a file that gets a suffix used for the language. Therefore there should be one for each language supported. It needs a fair amount of work to change it and it needs doing because it looks like it wont change the default headings from English by itself.

edit2 FORTS Super Forts are supposed to act like normal vanilla forts. When they get placed they get all 9 tiles unless the culture on the plots is bigger than theirs. If this is not happening then there is a bug in the Super Fort implementation code or XML.

In the XML new Forts are given a starting culture of 10 perhaps this needs lowering as you are suggesting that the outer range of cities may have less culture than that. Watchtowers for example start with 1.

We can change it so that they don't get all 9 tiles, just the one they are on, but that is a big change in game mechanics and would need to be discussed. There is a Culture Range tag that defines this.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Joseph_II

The reason TB speaks for me when it comes to "issues" is because he is the diplomat and can be more tactful. Me... well I am blunt and will tell exactly what I think.

In that we are alike. I didn't get the name NoNo man from Hydro by being coy or diplomatic.

I don't like the one tile start, it is a waste of how ever many turns it takes to eventually grow out. It is not at the first culture grow point, I was still at one tile and my next culture point was 50.

Never ever said it would take 1 turn to grow the other 8 tiles. It is dependent upon GS as each has a Culture level for Poor Cultral Level to be reached for the 8 tiles to "pop". The range is 10, 20, 30 ,50, 70, 80. And if you did not figure out that it could be shortened by what you build or how you use a unit like story teller, etc. then what can I say. It makes early Culture level More important. And is Not a waste of time in any way. It does mean that you cannot spend you 1st gatherer as fast as you had been though.

Do not tell me I have to play minimum city border, because I have always played the culture game.

Now you are just plain putting words in my mouth. I stated there is an Option to counter this, Not that you Had to use MCB Option. And this small change does not require an Option, That would be Overkill. All it requires is usage to see it's intrinsic value.

As for those ridiculous forts, you start building those around me, I go to war with you because I hate them.

Again we share similarities. But instead of getting "pissed" I adapted to it. Does that mean I like it no but I can play with it and learn from it too. How about you?

I know I have only been playing Civ since version 3, about 11 years, so I don't have the experience a lot of you veteran players have but I do know the basics, so don't try to come off with the "I don't know what I am doing".

Never impugned your game skills ever, just your reaction to something new.

You mentioned the changes TB made, I could give him an "honest" opinion of them if I could get a game going. And most of his changes are options, not someone's ideas thrust upon you.

There we have much room for disagreement.

This is a simple addition to the CulturalLevelInfos file. The 2nd level Poor had No culture levels for any game speed just like the 1st Level None. All I did was add a Very Low level culture point requirement. And you would've thought I had destroyed the Mod. That is overreaction plain and simple. Not adaptation to a small strategy expansion to early city placement. That can be let go and take it's natural number of turns to expand Or can be accelerated by proper manipulation. No turn is wasted but now evaluated a bit differently from the "old" way of plopping down a city.

So instead of playing with it and seeing it's real value in making Culture work just a bit sooner in the game And making city placement a bit more risky for a handful of turns it is easier to be "pissed off" about it. I have been there before too.

In reality that 1 tile city stage is still as defensible as that old starting 9 tile city. It is visually impacting though, to set in stone ways of play.

I turn the podium back to you madame whisperr.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This is a simple addition to the CulturalLevelInfos file. The 2nd level Poor had No culture levels for any game speed just like the 1st Level None. All I did was add a Very Low level culture point requirement. And you would've thought I had destroyed the Mod. That is overreaction plain and simple. Not adaptation to a small strategy expansion to early city placement. That can be let go and take it's natural number of turns to expand Or can be accelerated by proper manipulation. No turn is wasted but now evaluated a bit differently from the "old" way of plopping down a city.

So instead of playing with it and seeing it's real value in making Culture work just a bit sooner in the game And making city placement a bit more risky for a handful of turns it is easier to be "pissed off" about it. I have been there before too.

JosEPh

Not having any expansion at the first cultural level when it says you should is the problem. You go from one plot at the lowest cultural level to one plot at the next level ,gaining no plots at all, where one would expect 9 plots according to "the rules".

Realistic Cultural Spread has the same problem.

The terrain or terrain features are stopping all expansion when you get the first culture level.

So Culture is not working as intended in some cases and it stops being a "handful of turns" to get workable tiles, you need to get your culture up to level 3 before you do and I have seen one case where even that did not work.

This is not so much of a problem with later cities as you can send one of more entertainer units along to get the culture up but it is a big problem with your first city where you have to settle where it is or risk losing the game due to an animal attacking your band.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Not having any expansion at the first cultural level when it says you should is the problem. You go from one plot at the lowest cultural level to one plot at the next level ,gaining no plots at all, where one would expect 9 plots according to "the rules".

Realistic Cultural Spread has the same problem.

I tested this and it is Not the case at all!

The terrain or terrain features are stopping all expansion when you get the first culture level.

So Culture is not working as intended in some cases and it stops being a "handful of turns" to get workable tiles, you need to get your culture up to level 3 before you do and I have seen one case where even that did not work.

Again I refute this. In every test game played once you hit Poor level the city goes to the 9 tiles that we had before. The Only case where it does not is If a neighboring culture is already on one of those tiles by either a fort or another city with a higher Culture level. And of course Realistic Culture Spread plays by a different set of Culture rules but they still work as designed with this change.

And you have witnessed this need for culture to "level 3 before you do and I have seen one case where even that did not work", since I commited this change? From a new game? Please show a screenie of this as I have not seen or experienced this in any test game I've played Before I submitted this Little Game Wrecking Change!

This is not so much of a problem with later cities as you can send one of more entertainer units along to get the culture up but it is a big problem with your first city where you have to settle where it is or risk losing the game due to an animal attacking your band.

You can do a story teller too with appropriately lower level of Culture giving. Or build the Story teller Bldg in the 1st turns after you have place the city in the early game.

I really have to wonder if anyone is really playing with this or just crabbing for crabbing sake!??

JosEPh

 

[Whisperr]

I am withdrawing from the discussion.

I see no benefit for this change, and will make changes to my files.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, here's my analysis - and I intend to make observations impartially here:

1) So far, the test I ran with RCS showed that it does pop out to the first 9 on the first culture level up, regardless of terrain. Rivers were not included in this test so they may defy this first test. (2nd test had a river and it didn't stop the expansion either.)

2) It's about 16 rounds on snail to hit that point and it may well be the same round you get your first trait on developing leaders.

3) All in all it does just represent a slowdown at the beginning of the game.

4) There is 0 capability to influence culture output in these first turns of the game. There are no buildings you can build to speed it up, no units that can be trained to speed it up. All players are hit equally here. The only source of culture is from the palace. Having no way to influence it, this becomes just a featureless feature with no strategic involvement at all. This means it really has no actual game effect except perhaps to slightly exacerbate the importance of the first thing you build as it will take a lot longer to build it.

EDIT: to add to this point, IF we had an early building that was selectable to construct with no tech prerequisites, something like, say, 'Crude Creative Expressions' or 'Territory Markers', that may require the palace and obsolete pretty early on, a building that can be built fairly quickly, cheaper than even the Alpha buildings, that provides +1 culture, then now we have an interesting decision in this feature: pop out your first 9 (and your first trait selection potentially) earlier OR get that extra hammer from the Alpha Male as quickly as possible. The calculation as to which could be a better choice would be interesting indeed and would vary by game. The AI would always choose the extra hammer without recoding but at least it's interesting for the human player. This is the easy answer as to how to make this a strategic feature rather than a non-factor in game results.


5) A realization rather than part of the test: This functionality will destroy the usefulness of anything that allows a city to start with more than one population. Not for the player so much as for the AI, who won't know that to keep the additional population from starving, they MUST settle with a storyteller ready to be there to pop that initial 9 in the same round the city is founded. The thing is, if you have the ability to get an extra pop when you plant the city, you absolutely must choose to settle where you have a resource within the first 9 that will give you at least 4 food or you'll starve out the 2nd pop in the first round of the city's existence.

6) As far as rev is concerned, Anarchism and Militia may be partially to blame as they are the 2 top negative influences. However, if I'm not mistaken, unhappiness, even that which is not overwhelmed by overall happiness in the city, counts towards instability. We've recently dismissed the ability for the capital to be incapable of being unhappy at all with the default starting civic set and THAT might be a part of what's throwing cities into early revolt before it can be addressed. I don't know rev well enough to say for sure.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You know what revert it!

I just don't care any more as the Mod is Hopelessly broken. 45 minute or infinite EoT waits is Totally unacceptable And it's infinite loops from Added Concepts that are poorly executed.

We have no one to fix this mess. So the Mod is Finished because it's Broken.

I will extract from the SVN a version before all the Criminal and Enforcement additions as well as the NPC (which unfortunately I do like). I will play that and bother you all no more because my contributions are counted as dung.

I have had it with the heavy handedness here.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I make only observations.

Also... go back and read the edit I made before you posted that.

Additionally, I'm not telling you to remove it. But I will have to teach the AI to take entertainers enough to always pop the first rung of tiles within the first round so as to address the player edge this new dynamic gives. In the meantime it is what it is.

My own experience came up with a complete 5 out of 10 on the like it - dislike it scale. It means nothing at all. Adds nothing, takes nothing away. (Though there are a few flaws that will need to be addressed as mentioned above and we can get an interesting decision from it with the building I mentioned so that could up it to a 6 out of 10)

However, I also THINK I see a point you may see that's based on creating a more gradiated progression arc. It's a hard to explain to a player benefit to the mod, but to a modder who sees the underlying game speed adjustments and how this may help with those, it starts to make sense.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Something is kind of fishy here, i have all these units on AUTO-KILL, and they are just staying around MY territory??

This came up on the 'list' but I'm putting it at the end of the queue because it really is quite low on the priority level compared to other issues needing to be addressed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@ TB

continued from other thread, Snipers cant move into city?? City located next to Germany border . .1st listed

EDIT: Same game different points of turns, (second listed is s CTD repeatable . .

First issue must have been incidentally resolved by some updates to move and assassination rules. So that's good.

Second issue I was unable to replicate. Please test again and if it's still an issue then I'll have to once again go through and align all my options to yours and rerun the evaluation.