Single Player bugs and crashes v36 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of October 2015

[Thunderbrd]

Also:

45 minute or infinite EoT waits is Totally unacceptable

Yeah that would certainly be. Make sure to post those saves! These kinds of things can lurk for a very long time in the AI structures before being discovered.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is something else going on that i dont know about also, meaning, each time i start to play, whether or not new stuff added, it asks for a recal??

Also (dang lost my train of thoughts, . .

Moving to the end of the debug queue. Very low priority.

 

[Noriad2]

You know what revert it!

I just don't care any more as the Mod is Hopelessly broken. 45 minute or infinite EoT waits is Totally unacceptable And it's infinite loops from Added Concepts that are poorly executed.

We have no one to fix this mess. So the Mod is Finished because it's Broken.

I will extract from the SVN a version before all the Criminal and Enforcement additions as well as the NPC (which unfortunately I do like). I will play that and bother you all no more because my contributions are counted as dung.

I have had it with the heavy handedness here.

JosEPh

I'm suprised to hear that. I'm playing SVN 9265 with the settings you recommended and I'm currently late medieval. Turn times vary considerably from turn to turn, I estimated they are 2-4 minutes per turn. And the game is still a challenge

 

[Thunderbrd]

SVN 9219

After researching Shamanism it doesn't spread to my city and therefore doesn't get founded. Someone else researched & founded Druidism OK, and if I go into the worldbuilder & give myself a Shaman unit I can spread Shamanism to my city & it shows up as the Holy City, so it hasn't already been founded elsewhere.

Attached saves are from the turn before researching Shamanism & the turn it is researched.

I was able to replicate this but it's weirder than reported. The Rodnovery tech screen comes up rather than the Shamanism tech splash. Rodnovery is nowhere near being researched and the tech tree certainly looks like it was Shamanism you just researched. DP is not on so this should be operating according to the manner in which the xml prescribes - and checking the xml I'm not seeing any problems here.

Indeed neither Rodnovery nor Shamanism has been initiated as a religion into the game and you certainly have Shamanism researched so there's definitely a problem here.

However, this game may have suffered from some changing xml midstream? DH was recently fully modularizing the religions and perhaps you started the game before that update? Just a theory. I didn't try recalculating then taking the next turn but that may or may not be the issue - I'm thinking it has something to do with indexes being flawed. A conflict where in one way it thinks you've just researched Rodnovery and in other ways, Shamanism but then Rodnovery isn't researched so it doesn't actually trigger the initiation of the religion properly.

Might just be a problem with this particular game and assets changing during play. Otherwise its baffling and I'm not sure how to go about trying to further debug it.

DH MIGHT want to take a look at Rodnovery XML and Shamanism XML. Although at this point I'm just curious if anyone starting a game without divine prophets can replicate the issue.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

DH MIGHT want to take a look at Rodnovery XML and Shamanism XML. Although at this point I'm just curious if anyone starting a game without divine prophets can replicate the issue.

As far as I know I have not done anything to those two, I only got as far as doing most of the B's.

 

[Noriad2]

I'm playing with divine prophets on but it seems that the AI doesn't always use the free prophet to found the new religion. I research the tech, but don't get the free prophet, which indicates that the AI beat me to it.
I wonder if that is a bug or intended.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm playing with divine prophets on but it seems that the AI doesn't always use the free prophet to found the new religion. I research the tech, but don't get the free prophet, which indicates that the AI beat me to it.
I wonder if that is a bug or intended.

If they don't have another prophet then they may hang onto it if it's not a religion they care as much to have as perhaps another within an era away. They seriously want their favorite and will ignore the first one they can get if they figure they can get to that one, using this saved prophet to pop the shrine immediately.

Sometimes they might spend on a shrine rather than the religion as well.

 

[Thunderbrd]

After some initial tinkering it seems that DisallowedTraitTypes is working,although the civilopedia does not display any info regarding this at the initial load game,however it does display it after you choose a disallowed trait.
As for the bBansNonStateReligions there is no civilopedia display of any kind,it might be working but it will require a lot more investigation and more difficult to pin down if its actually working.

Putting on the debug queue.

 

[Noriad2]

Having played SVN 9265 (which is a few days old) deity with nightmare option to late medieval, I have the following observations:

-money is plentiful. At no time did I have financial troubles despite being at 100% beakers every single turn and not ever building Wealth. And with only the "usual" money producing buildings constructed, not the more expensive ones. The only times I got a slightly negative cash flow was when I moved a very large army into enemy territory. But by that time I had so much money piled up it had no real consequence. And when you can trade with competing civs for money, money becomes almost meaningless as a strategic factor.
-with money becoming irrelevant, civics that provide money at the expense of something else (e.g. City States) become not worth choosing.
-entertainer type units have become completely overpowered. Even at deity/nightmare, putting a few entertainers with promotions at buildup teaching will send Education sky high. Buildings like engineering school, that are expensive but give a lot of education, become pointless to build. The advantage of buildings over entertainers for education is that entertainers need upkeep. But like I said, money is plentiful. All my cities have deeply negative crime and education is sky high (many hundreds sometimes even over a thousand) .

The following interview with Sid Meier (who originally designed the Civ game series) is worth reading:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...ee_games_as_sets_of_interesting_decisions.php

Good games are a series of interesting decisions, usually centered around trade-offs.


------------------

So I recommend:

-increase the city upkeep both from distance and number of cities for the higher difficulty levels. I ASSUME that the parameters that govern these depend on difficulty level, and as long as you don't change Noble, it should not affect the AI. As the player has lots of tools at his disposal (building wealth, changing civics, disbanding excess troops or even badly located cities, lowering science etc) to change his money flow there is no need to go soft on the player.
-nerf entertainers.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think what we're going to need to do to 'nerf entertainers' (who don't give that much education really) is increase the need for education by era. The underlying issue is really that education is getting to be too easy to stay on top of. It seems to have the right balance at the beginning of the game (I rarely find I NEED any entertainers to assist, though I train a lot of them to get the story buildings built) but as the game progresses, population doesn't grow fast enough to counter the education that can be provided. That's setup on a fair increasing curve but the increase in need doesn't match it yet.

So if, at the techs that give access to more education autobuilding effect layers, we make each population soak up an additional education, this may re-balance the development arc on that a bit.

So this puts it on the debug queue to attempt now.

 

[tmv]

A few months (?) ago the education levels were spread out over the tech tree, because it wasn't (?) possible to stay on top of education, at least on the higher levels. The counter-intuitive result is that high education levels are almost meaningless until the end of the tech tree.

If it's possible now to deal with education from the beginning, could the tech dependency of the education levels be taken out again?

 

[stachnie]

SVN 9265 (or so, mid July), Size Matters on (if that matters). I had a Stalker promoted to Exceptional Might 2, Power 7. When promoting to a next level, I have chosen Exceptional Might 3, description says `+4 Power'. 11 Power would be nice, but I have got a 704 Power unit. It had t get 7+4, but it got 700+4. Now this super-unit wreaks havoc among my rivals. I will check if another one will get the same.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As I said, the Aztecs will attack my city, which turns barbarian and then they capture it right after that with normal units. The city has Walls, yet in this case there are no units that can see invisible units very well. But it also worked for them with high disguise and carmo visibility on my site.

They attack if you hit end of turn; the city in question is the island city in the north, just north of my capital.

It wasn't the latest SVN build, but it was only 3 SVN versions ago or so.

Probably the same underlaying problem: Bandit Raiders can attack my units inside a city, eventhough I have 100% Defense and Walls built (can't invade above 60%).

That particular situation may have been a little too tough to figure out all the details on because its a very detailed game with a lot going on and it makes it hard to catch in the code what's happening there. Also hard to open WB for some further analysis.

However, I checked the code regarding HN units that can attack cities, looking for why they might be getting around the minimum defense to enter levels. Indeed I found a logic flaw there that would only ask if the check should be made if the team that owns the unit was at war with the team that owns the city. This would thus be ignored if the teams weren't at war, even though the ruffian should be attacking and thus be required to check against that minimum entry level.

So I made it check the APPARENT team of the unit (in the case of HN, this means it comes up with a Barbarian team owner 'apparently'.) This fixed the issue but it doesn't resolve your situation. I think it has to do with the city already being under the minimum entry level.

You were reporting, in your first post, a bug that isn't a bug at all but a new feature. When HN units that CAN capture a city do so, they capture it for the barbarian player, which can indeed pave the way for your other units to come back behind them and capture the city for yourself.

It's tough to pull off, harder now that I've fixed the minimum defense to enter issue. Ruffians and Strike Teams are generally not as strong against a city as conventional war units, particularly when you don't have much in the way of any ability to tear down the defenses. Of course, you can have your HN units capture a bunch of rams or other siege weapons - they will be captured as HN and you can keep them that way unless they ever enter your territory! But it can be an effective method of stealing a city from a player without going to war with them.

The AI isn't fully trained on making this an actual effort but its nice to see it can be clever enough to pull it off now and then.

I'll have a dll that fixes the no entry regarding HN units committed today.

 

[Thunderbrd]

A few months (?) ago the education levels were spread out over the tech tree, because it wasn't (?) possible to stay on top of education, at least on the higher levels. The counter-intuitive result is that high education levels are almost meaningless until the end of the tech tree.

If it's possible now to deal with education from the beginning, could the tech dependency of the education levels be taken out again?

They were spread out over the tech tree because it WAS possible to stay on top of education. And it still is.

I still feel that it's been a good and wise change to limit those education levels by tech and it makes the tech tree choices that open up those levels worth a lot more if you are keeping your edu levels high.

It's also not so much 'counter-intuitive' that super high edu levels aren't useful until later because what that really means is that if you spend too much upkeep on educational units to keep your education super high, you're just wasting your support expense. Yet if you are too good at keeping that waste to a minimum, when you hit the next level of education opening up tech-wise, you're not going to be taking advantage of it for a while as you scramble to get your edu levels up after the fact.

AKA, making the edu levels open up by tech has improved the game play in numerous ways.

SVN 9265 (or so, mid July), Size Matters on (if that matters). I had a Stalker promoted to Exceptional Might 2, Power 7. When promoting to a next level, I have chosen Exceptional Might 3, description says `+4 Power'. 11 Power would be nice, but I have got a 704 Power unit. It had t get 7+4, but it got 700+4. Now this super-unit wreaks havoc among my rivals. I will check if another one will get the same.

That's ... odd. Does the unit have additional quality upgrades? Still would seem like something is out of whack in the math - like something was not recalculated in the right order or something. Just wondering if that's a factor.

I might need to see the save. Will be a bit yet before I can address. Also... is this a SM Uncut game or just SM?

 

[Dreifels]

it says, that it 'builds a transcontinental railrod", but in fact it makes some fragments only beside the city there the wonder is.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Main Battle Tank kept the Windhorse II promotion from the Mammoth Raider I upgraded it from.

The issue is probably that the canKeep check doesn't check for prerequisite unitcombats when the promotion has been given for free. I am inclined to think that it SHOULD check for this - in fact quite important that it does. However, I'm wondering what the change is going to invite - was this changed earlier to make free promotions ignore this prerequisite for a reason?

I'll have to change it and see what comes of it.

Once you research Manufactoring, you can't construct Factories on Ice anymore.

Could Factories ever been constructed on ice since ice is impassable? Or am I not understanding something here? DH? Any opinions on this one?

 

[Thunderbrd]

it says, that it 'builds a transcontinental railrod", but in fact it makes some fragments only beside the city there the wonder is.

Vokarya's wonder. DH might be able to comment or fix since its entirely python.

 

[Thunderbrd]

- The 100% cost reduction from the national wonder Captured Fire appears to be not working.

This is working as intended. However, I think I understand why players may not understand how. The modifier is to the production output of the city while it's being built, not a reduction to the production cost of the building itself. You'll only see this in effect when you look at the production breakdown hover, and I'm pretty sure it only works if it's the object that's next in the queue so THAT might be a little funny how it pans out as part of multiple items being constructed or trained in a turn. That said, I've looked far enough for this particular bug report. Not seeing any code or execution flaws in this tag and all displays are showing as should be expected so far as I can see.

 

[Dreifels]

a desert field with freshwater, gives with desert camp 2 food.
I take a Great Farmer and set pigs there, then I can make a willow, gives 8 food
so far OK, but then I can build a farm, gives 11 food.
This looks not right for me.

 

[stachnie]

[ super-strong Stalker]

That's ... odd. Does the unit have additional quality upgrades? Still would seem like something is out of whack in the math - like something was not recalculated in the right order or something. Just wondering if that's a factor.
I might need to see the save. Will be a bit yet before I can address. Also... is this a SM Uncut game or just SM?

This was the only quality upgrade. A second Stalker got free Exceptional Might 3 during a battle and it is STR 9 now. I am in a way to promote third Stalker - I will check if I may repeat this bug.

This is just SM (not Uncut). Chosen promotions: Hunting 1 - Combat 1 - Combat 2 - Combat 3 - Marsh - Exc. M. 1 - EM 2 -> EM 3.

S.