Genesplicer
Chieftain
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C2C Custom Continents
Single Player bugs and crashes v36 plus (SVN) - After the 24th of October 2015
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
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C2C Custom Continents
Genesplicer
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 20, 2015
- Messages
- 9
And thank you....
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@T-brd,
I only have Right of Passage with Ramses. Yet he has a Settler with an escorting Axeman in my Empire. They are on the same tile as my Tamed Wolf. Why?
When did RoP allow Mil units to move into other Empires lands?
Let me know if you need save game, current SVN 9375.
JosEPh
I only have Right of Passage with Ramses. Yet he has a Settler with an escorting Axeman in my Empire. They are on the same tile as my Tamed Wolf. Why?
When did RoP allow Mil units to move into other Empires lands?
Let me know if you need save game, current SVN 9375.
JosEPh
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Does the Axeman have the promotion that makes him defensive only?
Edit: on closer examination, he does. It's the funny looking shield one. And it makes him permanently incapable of attack, which qualifies him to move through a territory with RoP. The wolf is more concerning... are those incapable of attacking?
Man... that was an incidentally clever AI. I have only hinted at that kind of thing in the AI code rather than being very explicit about using such a strategy.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Tamed Wolves can attack "normally". Breeding Pairs are defensive only.
So if I'm not using any HS, for me to expel that settler and Axe (w/defender only status) I need a Stealth unit? Or a unit like the Tamed Wolf/Big cat with a Stealth attack promo? Ugh.........
JosEPh
So if I'm not using any HS, for me to expel that settler and Axe (w/defender only status) I need a Stealth unit? Or a unit like the Tamed Wolf/Big cat with a Stealth attack promo? Ugh.........
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
That depends not at all on HS. It would normally be the same on H&S as it would without it. To which, what you said would be true. However, this does also depend on the Amnesty option. If you're using Amnesty then opponent units moving through your territory by rights of a diplomatic agreement are immune to all attacks, even by your HN units. I don't use Amnesty - this was DH's request. I don't hate the option but I think you and I hit a point on which me and my wife agree on strategically as well, if they're in your territory for any reason, ESPECIALLY if they are moving a settler through, they must die. (usually)
To clarify, Stealth Attack isn't just an attack by a standard HN unit with Always Hostile (your classic Hidden Nationality unit).
Stealth Attacks are attacks against units that can't see your unit.
A Hidden Nationality unit with Always Hostile can attack units that see them all the same as units that can't. The difference is that they don't need a declaration of war to do it, whether they can be seen or not.
Even an invisible unit that does NOT have Hidden Nationality would need a declaration of war to attack a neutral player's unit.
So Stealth has no relationship at all to whether a unit can attack a unit of a player you aren't at war with.
Only if it had belonged to an AI, it is joe's.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
No I do not use Amnesty. I don't like it. I think all units going thru my country should be wary of doing so.
I understand HN units, or at least what they used to be.
So now I have to figure out how to stop this settler and escorting defender only axeman without issuing a Declaration of war or killing the Right of Passage treaty.
plbbbbttt!!!I've only been keeping Ramses alive because he and Monty have been fighting since day one. And it's allowed me to control the rest of the continent we're on.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Hah! Good catch. I didn't analyze the graphic enough apparently.
Agreed. And it looks like this guy was rather wary since he sent a weapon-bound axeman to accompany!
Good. Don't let stealth confuse you then. HN is still the way you attack a unit you aren't at war with. Stealth only deals with invisibility.
Bandits would be my best guess/suggestion, or assassins. Depends on your tech level and access.So now I have to figure out how to stop this settler and escorting defender only axeman without issuing a Declaration of war or killing the Right of Passage treaty.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@T-brd look at my screenshot that shows 1 of my cities and 2 of Monty'. His 2 pop and my 4 pop both have 125% city defense and even his 1 pop has 35%. This screenie was before the updates on SN 9376.
If your game is only showing 20% city defense then You have a bug. Or you need to reset your User setting folder, possibly even clear your cache.
JosEPh
If your game is only showing 20% city defense then You have a bug. Or you need to reset your User setting folder, possibly even clear your cache.
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Strange, I was sure settlers could not enter territory with a RoP, workers could but could not do work unless you had an Open Borders or better. It allowed you to build better routes only and they belonged to the nation they were built in. Great for moving your troops through your Vassals and Allies.
I am against any combat unit being able to get a promotion that makes it defensive btw, for this very reason.
Joe, send in an assassin to attack and kill the settler only. In fact if you don't have Amnesty on any HN unit can attack either unit without declaring war.
My problem has always been that missionaries and corp execs on automated will go through RoP territory to spread the word in normal BtS even when the AI has HN units and it should be the case in C2C. It better reflects the nature of religions and corporations.
I am against any combat unit being able to get a promotion that makes it defensive btw, for this very reason.
Joe, send in an assassin to attack and kill the settler only. In fact if you don't have Amnesty on any HN unit can attack either unit without declaring war.
My problem has always been that missionaries and corp execs on automated will go through RoP territory to spread the word in normal BtS even when the AI has HN units and it should be the case in C2C. It better reflects the nature of religions and corporations.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It was a better solution to your concerns about effective escorts than creating a whole new unit line (or lines to mirror many other unit types). It was much easier to allow any KIND of unit to become an escort once dedicated to it by a promo. The promo is not reversible so they can't use it to get through then remove it. (I'll have to do a little extra to enforce that with this promotionline in particular.)
Can the assassin kill only the settler in this case?
I'm not sure what you're saying is a problem here... that they aren't being escorted effectively or that they are going into RoP territory at all or that they do so when there's the potential to be killed?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
In BtS missionaries and corp execs can and will spread their thing to nations you have an open border with. In RoM, RoM/AND and early C2C they could do this to nations you had RoP with and they did. However HN and Criminal units were introduced and now the missionaries and corp execs get killed as soon as they enter any foreign territory.
Not very realistic! The missionaries in particular are good decent people being murdered out of hand. Same sort of goes for corporate execs and eventually diplomats.
There should be a huge hue and cry by the people of that religion from all nations as well as demands for action from the originating nation. Each time it happens there should be a diplomatic hit between the murdering nation and all nations that have that state religion as well as the origination nation. If it is the missionary is of the state religion of the murdering nation then all their cities should also take a large unhappiness hit for 5 turns each time a murder occurs. Eventually sanctions should be drawn up against the nation and all trade cut off until the criminals are brought to justice.
Of course if you are running the "Closed Borders" then you should not be able to have a RoP or OB in the first place.
Not very realistic! The missionaries in particular are good decent people being murdered out of hand. Same sort of goes for corporate execs and eventually diplomats.
There should be a huge hue and cry by the people of that religion from all nations as well as demands for action from the originating nation. Each time it happens there should be a diplomatic hit between the murdering nation and all nations that have that state religion as well as the origination nation. If it is the missionary is of the state religion of the murdering nation then all their cities should also take a large unhappiness hit for 5 turns each time a murder occurs. Eventually sanctions should be drawn up against the nation and all trade cut off until the criminals are brought to justice.
Of course if you are running the "Closed Borders" then you should not be able to have a RoP or OB in the first place.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Just my opinion but here are my thoughts:
1) demands for action by the originating nation would need to be able to identify the originating nation. For a diplomatic hit to apply, the nation would have to be identified. Currently criminals and strike teams, pirates and ruffians, have no mechanism like spies to potentially give away who they are working for. I've considered trying to study the spy code to give something of a mimic to that if they are dispatched or arrested. When I consider that, it gets really complicated and no real simple mechanism concept emerges.
2) missionaries are killed in foreign lands in real world Earth all the time! And it's very rare to know who did it. Corporate officers would fear to tread in many lands on Earth today and what do they do about it? They pay for militarized guards when they go into those regions.
3) it's better for gameplay that any goal has numerous methods by which they can be thwarted.
That defensive promotion also gives specific benefits against criminals and strike teams. The AI is even using it properly to an extent without the new dedicated escort AI I intend to design for them. If you were to group such a promoted unit along with a missionary and set that missionary to automate spread, I believe they'll travel as a group to achieve that goal. (Not confirmed yet.)
The point is I'm trying to help make these stealth units functional, yet not overwhelming, counterable but not useless. Striking a balance between you and SO on this is getting to be a nightmare but you've gotta admit I've gone to great lengths to try, regardless of how much flak I get for it.
Oh... one more note:
The only rule setup before I tweaked it so that Law Enforcement units could get a tag that allows them to be capable of attack and still capable of using an RoP was that units that cannot attack were those that could use a Rite of Passage. This includes, and always has, settlers. You've never seen them USE it because they won't ungroup from their escorts. If you want to give them a specific tag to say they CAN'T use a Rite of Passage despite being incapable of attack, that's another thing entirely to setup.
But then... isn't Joe's scenario kinda interesting?
Agreed. Haven't taken the time to analyze diplomacy coding enough to have an idea on how to make a tag for civics that would tie into that. I kinda fear diplomacy coding in general as a can of worms in and of itself.
One more footnote here... one of the major inspirations for that promotionline is the historical Knights Templar, who for many years prior to excavating the temple mound in Israel were employed as guardian escorts for merchants and pilgrims travelling to the holy lands, giving them the opportunity to make the way safer to a place where without them, no travellers could feel safe to go. In the equivalency in C2C, these would be Crusader units with that defensive promotionline. They weren't alone as far as medieval militarized guards go either.
A promotion set for merchants is not quite sufficient imo. It helps and is reflective of a small group of guards or some self defense training but those units will never be able to be brought to be strong enough to defend themselves without making promos that are simply far too strong for a promotion to be.
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In the next turn of the attached saved game, 6 exiles are entering to my city and all the captured animals in the city are disappearing. Is this normal? Furthermore, is there a way to get rid of foreign exiles in the city centers? They are creating a lot of crime which I cannot cope with.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The originating nation of the criminals and HN units is "naturally" the nation they are operating in. It is that nation that is allowing the murder of decent law abiding citizens going about their business.
the diplomatic and local hit still happens even if the murderers are not brought to justice. If they are then the diplomatic hit is reversed.
Escorts never existed in RoM or early ROM/AND or early C2C and settlers did not enter foreign lands probably because they would not have an escort from those lands through the wild lands to where they wanted to settle. It is the addition of Escorts and the Defense Only promotion that is allowing this to happen. So it is completely a new thing.
Oh well we can just get rid of missionaries completely and have religions spread based on the "religion spread" value which is not really used at the moment, trade routes and the religious civic of the "target" nation.
the diplomatic and local hit still happens even if the murderers are not brought to justice. If they are then the diplomatic hit is reversed.
Escorts never existed in RoM or early ROM/AND or early C2C and settlers did not enter foreign lands probably because they would not have an escort from those lands through the wild lands to where they wanted to settle. It is the addition of Escorts and the Defense Only promotion that is allowing this to happen. So it is completely a new thing.
Oh well we can just get rid of missionaries completely and have religions spread based on the "religion spread" value which is not really used at the moment, trade routes and the religious civic of the "target" nation.
Noriad2
Emperor
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,153
"clear your cache and reset your user settings" is a technical procedure, for which it is not entirely obvious what it consists of just from reading these words.
Would it be possible to write a script that would do that (preferable so that it would be executable with a desktop icon) or at least a more detailed workflow instruction to achieve those things? Of course, a good script would also make a backup of your user settings just in case..
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
A recent fix had the capacity to bring on an unusual flood of exiles that were previously just standing around in the wild. An exile generated by your cities cannot enter your lands, barbarian or not (well they're not supposed to be able to at least.) So these are likely those that spawned from other nations. They've stopped being lame ducks and started acting now, heading for the nearest accessible enemy cities to infiltrate and become a nuisance. Good to see that's working now... but in a game that had them working properly from the beginning, it should've been a much more steady drip the whole time, a challenge you could spot and stop from entry if you quickly train up a good Observer that can see through disguise (on Hide and Seek at least). They are pretty much immune to being spotted by animals now too so they have a clear path through the wilderness as long as they don't run afoul of hunters and neanderthals.
As for how to deal with them once they are IN the city, I've also just fixed the Investigation and Arrest mechanism for Hide and Seek and it's been working all along for non-Hide and Seek games. More info on that can be found here: Understanding Strike Teams, Ruffians and Criminals and in the opening portion of that thread.
I'm soon to put all this info and more regarding the v37 stuff into a much more concise and edited format/manual.
Making for even more damage to a foe you are plaguing with strike teams and criminals of your own? Interesting... I'd not considered that. You could start a war between two other countries by simply sending in your stealth units to cause diplomatic trouble. As if they weren't nasty enough huh?
I suppose at some point I'll have to really get down and dirty with diplomatic modifiers being generated by unit actions and create a whole web of interactions to impose the proper diplomatic risks, penalties, and so on for all that can happen due to these unit's activities. Not a small thing but would be rewarding once done.
Absolutely untrue. Not even an AI would send out settlers beyond their borders without having units go with them to defend. It may have been done differently in the coding than it is now but even vanilla didn't have the AI sending settlers to wander the wild without protection. And they would never ungroup from their protectors so they would never take advantage of their ability to move through a nation with an RoP because they can't attack.
It's a new thing because that promotion is a rather good selection for units meant to protect other units. This was intended to work mostly for assigning effective guards to merchants, workers, missionaries, executives, great people on long distance missions, storytellers and so on. That the AI has figured out it's a good way to get a settler through your lands to scab is rather surprising that they'd be that clever based on such simple AI mechanics put in place in hopes they would use it properly for the intended purposes.
This was made possible because of YOUR complaints about how criminals and strike teams do exactly what would be natural for them to do historically, take advantage of underprotected travellers.
Why would we do that?
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Almost all the things we want on the diplomat unit will be for positive diplomatic relations so we need them soon also.
Meaning either I was not clear or you mis read what I wrote as what I meant is exactly what you wrote here. Without escorts they didn't move through other nations because they would not survive in the wilderness on the other side.
Gets rid of one use units and some micro management.
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